The public expresses significant concern over the exploitation of Balochistan's resources, highlighting the neglect of local communities by both the U.S. and the Pakistani government. Many voices reflect frustration towards foreign interests and the internal divisions exacerbating the plight of the Baloch people.

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A separate Balochistan will primarily cause problems for just one group: the residents of Balochistan. Everyone keeps raving on about how many earth minerals Balochistan has but they keep forgetting that the cost of excavating those minerals is higher than the market value of the minerals themselves, even if we forget the mortal risk factor. If that wasn't the case, the greedy 'businessmen' of Pakistan would have run those reserves dry by now if the international businesses didn't sink their teeth in first. Gas reserves are not that valuable as Pakistan's gas demand is SO high, we import the overwhelmingly vast majority of it.

Secondly, most people living there are tribal by nature. Infact, the place is so sparsely populated that if you look at a population density map of Pakistan, the Balochistan will distinctly jump out at you as being the least shaded and you won't even need provincial boundaries to tell it apart. Now overlap that with a percentage map of Balochi speaks and you'll see a completely inverted result in relation to the population density. I.e, the Baloch live in the sparsely populated areas while the densely populated areas are mostly inhabited by people who *don't* speak Balochi. This factored on top of tribalism is the bane of large cities (aka economic hubs aka development).

How exactly will such an economy survive once separated? They won't be able to trade via Gawadar since Pakistan literally *purchased* that city from Oman in 1958 and will rather dismantle it than give it to Balochistan. And of course, Balochistan doesn't have the resources to buy it off either. The Chinese influence via investments there would also spell trouble. That just leaves them with Quetta as a dry port which facilitates trade to Afghanistan. Considering how often that port is suspended and that it's the only dry port that the PSW didn't extend it's new facilities to, it's not a very valuable one. With Peshawar dry port as an alterative, they can forget earning any thing of value via tariffs on trade via Quetta.

And who's their neighbors? Iran, and Afghanistan who they are in extremely bad terms with and a new neighbor called Pakistan. Trade prospects would pretty much resemble the kind of trade prospects Pakistan and India have currently.

Finally, let's also not forget that most of the talent required for development is brought in from the rest of Pakistan anyways so that source would be cut off too and nurturing their own talent would be off the tables too as the subsides from Pakistan would be gone too. Their share of the annual budget is higher in terms of percentage that their annual provincial GDP after all yet nobody in the rest of Pakistan complains about that either because guess what, we all consider the Baloch part of despite of easily they get influenced by foreign separatist propaganda.

Do I even need to mention how mountainous, infertile and barren that region even is?

Practicality be damned, the idea doesn't even sound good on paper.

salmangamer

Will matters resolve? Have matters resolved? Like ever?

Pinkman-1

Bangladesh was the poorest area under Pakistan but surpassed Pakistan when they became independent. They were also called traitors and what not, and how they wouldn't be able to survive. People act like Pakistan, especially Balochistan, is some good place to live in under Pakistani rule but Pakistan is one of the worst countries to live in worldwide. Especially Balochistan. 

We support Kashmiri independence, couldn't you use all the same arguments there? 

Let's say everything is the fault of Balochs. Why not let them separate then if they are so stupid? 

This reasoning is complete nonsense and it truly shows our lack of basic foresight. Hold the state accountable first before you blame people for going against the state. Why are we more concerned about separatists going against the state rather than the state not allowing basic rights, like right to vote, expressing political opinions, rule of law and an end to corruption? If we want to be pragmatic, we need to hold the state accountable first and make sure that it does its part, before we take measures against people who are against the state. Give them reasons to be with the state rather than telling them that their feelings and thoughts are just wrong, do you think that will resolve anything and lead to peace?

I want a unified pakistan, but that only works if you give people a perspective within this country.

Edit: this comment is not specifically for the OP but the overall comments I am reading here.

[deleted]

Baluchistan is multi ethnic. The unrest is in Baloch areas. The mekranis, the pakhtun areas, the brahvis are peaceful. If u read the manifesto they are looking for independence in Baloch areas only, not the whole province. The catch is that more Baloch live in South Punjab than they do in Baluchistan. However I disagree that it can't flourish as an independent state. I definitely don't want it to go but with a strategic location as gateway to central Asia, a long coastline, gwadar port, small population and rich mineral resources it can prosper as a secular state like Bangladesh. However we shouldn't let this happen and we should try our level best to find amicable solutions.

Full_Computer6941

It cannot possibly separate even if every single Baloch picks up a gun, including the ones in Afghanistan and Iran.
Calm down.

Moreover, 

- After 18th amendment provinces have greater autonomy than ever. Most of the decisions impacting public life are in the hands of provinces now.

- Most of the gas comes from Sindh. And every bit of gas which goes from one province to another is paid for in market price.

- Balochistan in fact doesn't have natural resources to match any Gulf country. Perhaps except Yemen.

- The remaining three provinces always were, and always will be leagues more prosperous than the wasteland that is Balochistan.

- This conflict began when they started killing people based on race (Professors, laborers, tourists, Shia pilgrims etc) -- This conflict will end when they stop killing people based on race.

- Until then their communist asses can keep that province beneath Somalia &amp; Ethiopia in Global Peace Index. Devoid of any economy, investment or jobs. 

Nobody gives a L

Mad-AA

Balochistan will never separate from the country and if u think it will ur so idiotic . It can’t even be an independent state

VeterinarianSea7580

Basically this is not how countries break up... First step is lack of local governance that is filled with militant groups like if there is a dispute people go to the Taliban to have it resolved... That is called shadow govt. Lots of areas of KP, Balochistan and even Punjab near KP have this going on... Local police and army will make deals with militant groups not to target them and will not engage them... That's also going on... This is what happened in Afghanistan and Syria... We are at initial stage where the country is slowly losing its writ...

But officially the currency used will still be Pakistani rupee and it will be a part of Pakistan...

doggydestroyer

Hey y’all-

As the title states, todays’s [Balochistan province](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan,_Pakistan#/media/File:Balochistan_in_Pakistan_(claims_hatched).svg) of Pakistan remains independent after partition under the rule of the Khan of Kalat.

The Khanate does not adopt the policy of expelling religious minorities as Pakistan did, and therefore there is a sizable Hindu/Sikh population, especially in the major cities.

Something I personally found interesting is that the language of the Kalat royal family is [Brahui](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahui_language), belonging to the [Dravidian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages) family of languages mostly spoken in South India.

Seeing as though no one ethnolinguistic group forms a majority, multilingualism is common. Due to its high prestige status, though, Brahui does serve as a lingua-franca in many urban centers.

As for the minority of Hindus and Sikhs who were never expelled, they live in relative peace in major urban centers where they form a large percentage of the population, but may not be treated as well in rural areas. Their situation may be similar to that of Ashkenazi Jews in the US, where they are treated better in larger cities than in the countryside.

Today, Kalat’s quality of life and general vibe is similar to that of Oman. They may not be a world-famous tourist destination, but they mind their business and watch their neighbors fight from afar, glass of sharbat in hand.

iemaps

Interesting timeline!

I personally don't see the British-ruled areas ([chief commissioner's province of Balochistan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baluchistan_(Chief_Commissioner%27s_Province)) - including Quetta - being part of this country.

Not only would it be claimed by Pakistani, it is also mostly populated by Pashtuns who would probably prefer to go along with the NWFP and/or Afghanistan. I would expect just Kalat, Kharan, Makran, Las Bela and maybe Sibi (Bugti-Marri country) to be part of this state.

There would be a lot of Pashtuns in here who wouldn't be happy to be in a Baloch-majority country

Pyrenees_

Difficult_Airport_86

pm174

elsol_de_miseria

Iran would probably try to get it into her sphere of influence since they are scared that the country could sponsor Balochistani separatism in Iran. Also Afghanistan would also have irredentist inspirations probably wishing to annex the Pashtun majority regions or even the entire country to in order to gain a coastline

_andyyy_

Cool, probably for the best because Pakistani government sucked the life out of Balochistan in our timeline this would be the best for everyone

What happens to the original Pakistan here though? Without the wealth of Balochistan would they even be strong enough to survive?

Start_pls

ur mistaken, the khanate of kalat was a small state in the middle of modern day balochistan province. the balochistan province of pakistan was never a united province called khan of kalat.

MysteriousStay5137

Cool work OP, keep up the work!


This would lead to a quite different Pakistan and India, especially with power politics in the region probably paving the way for an expansion of the geopolitical conflict between the two (should the two of them still try to butt heads over Kashmir) until the introduction of the CCP, who would probably try to extend it’s economic influence into Balochistan through Pakistan if both those countries maintain cordial relations by that point in time of history 

I can definitely see Pakistani nationalists viewing Balochistan as a sore point of its existence, whereas Indian nationalists might also maybe try to pass some claims on majority Hindu lands, which is definitely possible if a similar political landscape to OTL is followed in this world. 

All in all this is some amazing mapping!

DecimatingRealDeceit

Beautiful Map. Very well done! Great lore and scenario

HSudev521

Pakistan’s History with Afghanistan goes back decades. No single comment can encompass it. People saying it’s good for Pakistan are insane when pm IK says that the taliban taking over would be catastrophic for Pakistan since then don’t have the resources with dealing with Afghan refuges spilling over. The only thing that you could say is that Ghani was a horrible leader and refused to cooperate with Pakistan. Taliban are much more open to discussion with Pakistan on border related issues as Pakistan has been asking for political settlements with them instead if bombing them like the last 20 years. That being said, Pakistan has their hands tied in what to do since they share a border. Either they work with them and get shit or don’t work with them and risk increase terror attacks spilling over. I think Pakistan has suffered enough from all these neighboring wars and chooses to work with whatever party is in power

coolnasir139

Politically speaking, only advantage Pakistan got out of this coupe was no more indian backed puppet afghan government.
To my knowledge, I don't know any legitimate reason why would Pakistanis support Taliban and those who do are just stupid/oblivious or extremist/radical Islamist.
Feel free to add any other reason if you know.

rex_ra

Most Pakistanis do not support the Taliban’s ideology. Pro-Taliban parties have always fared extremely poorly in Pakistani elections.

On the other hand, the Afghan government was very unpopular in Pakistan. Every Afghan government since the Taliban were overthrown in 2001 has been heavily dominated by members of the former Northern Alliance that had opposed the Taliban. These Northern Alliance members hated Pakistan (mostly because Pakistan had spent many years trying to literally kill them, using  Gulbuddin Hekmatyr and later the Taliban as its tool ).

Now if, after taking power, they took the position of “Hey Pakistan, we love you, all in the past is forgiven and we will support you like a good neighbour” then Afghanistan would have been a paradise today.

However, instead they took advantage of being in power to be vindictive and follow an anti-Pakistan policy over the course of all of the post-2001 governments. In particular, they chose to not just establish friendly relationships with India (which had helped them to survive in their 1995-2001 war with the Taliban) but they also allowed India to use Afghan territory to support anti-Pakistani militants and terrorists operating in Western Pakistan. This made the Pakistani state absolutely disinterested in actively supporting the stability of the Afghan government.

So yes, the Taliban are oppressive. Yes, they have a twisted view of Islam and Islamic law compared to mainstream views in Pakistan. Yes, they will be bad for the Afghan people.

But the Taliban, from Pakistan’s view, has one redeeming virtue. Unlike the 2002-2021 Afghan governments, they are extremely unlikely to allow Afghan territory to be used as a base for Indian support to militants and terrorists in Balochistan and the KP province of Pakistan.

So the Taliban victory in Afghanistan is terrible for Afghans, but it will lead to more stability, less violence, and greater prosperity in Pakistan.

DegnarOskold

&gt;They carried out suicide attacks regularly. We, as a nation are aware of the destruction these attacks cause as our cities have been ravaged by them as well. The victims are almost always normal innocent citizens trying to live a normal life. Don't lie to yourself that they only targeted evil or bad people.

The suicide attackes in Pakistan were carried out by the TTP, not the Afghan Taliban. Talking factually:  
“ Not a single suicide attack occurred in Pakistan while Afghan Taliban were in power in Afghanistan 1996-2001. From 2007-2014 TTP dogs of hell were financed, trained &amp; sent by…Karzai/Ghani from safe havens in Afg which may no longer be possible..”

Also, I have seen 4 types of people rejoicing fall of Kabul

1. The people who share Taliban's ideology and are hence happy on Taliban's return
2. Those who don't really know what the Taliban stand for. They just know that it is an "Islamic" party so they are glad about it. So they lack full political and historical understanding of the Afghan Taliban
3. Those who don't care for the Taliban. They are just happy at the defeat of American Imperialism, and of American exceptionalism.
4. Those who neither care for the Taliban nor the US, but rather are glad at the fall of Ashraf Ghani and his corrupt government. Mainly because Ashraf Ghani supported ethno-fascist parties like PTM in Pakistan who were spreading racist views against Punjabis while speaking for the supremacy of the Pashtun race and dismemberment of Pakistan.  
Also, Ashraf Ghani and Hamid Karzai gave India a free hand to use Afghan territory to arm, train, and fund terrorist groups like TTP, BLA, BRA etc, that are conducting Terrorism in Pakistan.

Solid_Snake49

Pakistanis are happy because no more indian insurgence in pakistan through afghanistan

popup22

Because there are some Pakistanis who genuinely support the taliban..Look at us we have some groups that are even more extreme than them like tehreek labaaik ya rasool and sipah e sahaba

sifarworld

They can do whatever they want to do in their country (yes, its their country since they come from there and won the power through war). Our main concern is that they shouldn't let Afghanistan be used against Pakistan. Third you are confusing Afghan Taliban and TTP. 

This recent thread has very authentic info:

https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/comments/p6njbx/can\_someone\_please\_provide\_a\_difference\_between/

harry_lahore

I don't understand your entire argument. The US LOST AND THE TALIBAN WON. They can do whatever they want since its their country now. Some Pakistanis will support the TB and others will oppose them. Putting out random statements about human rights crap won't really do much since the TB don't care and also they won, fair and square.

Also the US fled. The Afghani government was corrupt af and Ghani is now living safely in Dubai with his buttload of stolen cash. The TB were bound to come back regardless of what the "armchair historians and politicians" here said. What exactly were you expecting?

As far as Pakistan goes, this is a democracy and people have freedom to speak their own opinions. You basically want everyone to agree with your version of the truth. I can also list a a lot of points about the American invasion of Afghanistan and why it was bad and why the TB government is a lot better than the American or Afghani govt.

LordFaquaad

Deep down Pakistanis think sharia law should rule the land and that women should be restricted. This is something a lot of people (even women) believe. But it also shows their hypocrisy, since they'd never want to live under such a regime themselves. If the Taliban ever showed up at their door step telling them what to do, what to wear, to not socialize, etc they'll change their tune fast

pixelperfect3

most don’t “support” the taliban but a lot of them think the taliban is better than the afghan government which openly tried to annex Pakistani land and blame Pakistan for everything 

personally I don’t like either both are scums

IK_Lover5

because they are idiots who are incapable of elcudiating their happiness with the end of an occupatin with the religious extremsits who are in powre

And pakistan doesn't have honest discussion about race. they think pakhtuns are socially conserative religious fundamnetlaists...yet al the talib supporters are clean shaven punjabis who have no reality of these people and their barbarity including killing children in KP.

Thees same people like the 400 boys in minare pakistan where kalima said under flag....in same city with heera m. munafiq

napitoff1

Bro for the millionth time, AFGHAN TALIBAN ARE NOT RELATED WITH TTP. 

Yes they're extreme in their ways but their ways suits.  Afghanistan is still ruled by tribes and clan. They are better for us because the past indian and american influenced govt was pretty against us. They were pro durand line haters. They literally threatened Pakistan army for an invasion some months back LOL.

 So, yeah for us taliban govt in Afghanistan is better than that sucker ghani.

We're not supporting Taliban - we know what they've done and we've suffered at their hands as well. What we're relieved is to see a pro-india and anti-pakistan government leave. 

 I pray for the well being of our Afghan brothers and hope we always maintain peaceful relations

Motorized23

For a country swayed by guns and power, what do you expect? Hamein doosre ka ghar jalta dekhna bhi acha lagta hy and we have some delusion k the Taliban take over hurts India somehow and we must celebrate it.

Crafty-Survey-5895

it's more to hate against imperialism than love for the Taliban.

nycbay

Yikes. My parents are considering moving back to Pakistan. I suppose the response to this post will just be more supporting arguments for me to make against them moving back.

RealDexterJettster

2 words: western propaganda.... also don't confused ttp (un certified terrorists) with the afghan taliban.

Sad_Narutard

OP would have probably been content if USA was still in Afghanistan using drones target practice on our weddings.



Also, the last point. Doesn't matter if Pakistanis support Taliban or not, NZ were going to reconsider anyway. Not like Indian Afghan propaganda wasn't affecting us already

SpacevsGravity

Most Pakistanis are deeply conservative. I remember when Ahmadi worship places were attacked by the Taliban, most of my colleagues supported the terrorists. So it's no surpise many Pakistanis are happy to see Taliban take over Afghanistan. 

Now with implementation of the Single National Curriculum, the new generation is likely to be even more sympathetic toward Islamists and intolerant of religious minorities. More Talibanesque.

tito-mir

Ah yes another person who doesnt know the difference between IEA and TTP is here to lecture us about Taliban.

it is getting old.

Taliban is so based they defeated the US, I believe they'll crack the code to implement the Shariah in the modern World. I can see they've changed. Another reason is that they defeated the Indian supported and corrupt Afghan Government.

mabdullah_malik0

I truly recommend you start stepping out of your social bubble, Taliban aren't the all evil enemy for us, neither will they ever be, this was always western led narrative that they justified their first invasion of Afghanistan with blames of terrorism, ever since that terrorist identity got attached with them they have been blamed, ridiculed and isolated by the world . Americans spent over 20 years their trying to maintain power and control, those people fought for 20 years against a foreign invasion, and yes at the end they were successful with Chinese and Russian pressure Americans were forced to withdraw. discussing the aftermath after 20 years finally peace have been achieved , Majority of afghanis are actually celebrating it was only in Kabul that the collaborators and supporters of previous Ghani government were trying to escape. their are even many afghanis in Pakistan as refugees who have now started going back. for many peace have finally prevailed.

1. the suicide attacks you talk about are incredibly contested. there was no one taliban organization working their instead their were dozens of different organization working their each supported by a different foreign country. Reports even suggest that many suicidal bombings were sponsored by the previous afghan government themselves to legitimize their corrupt regime and keep building public narrative against the Taliban in order for the puppet government to maintain power and control.
2. that is also highly debatable, their is no proof to link the assassinations directly with the Taliban and lets say even if their were some which were sponsored by taliban you must know that this was asymmetrical warfare and in war bloodshed between the opposition factions is pretty common. forget the Taliban if any country was fighting an asymmetrical warfare they would have done the same. We champion the west a lot. however just look at CIA and its history of coups and assassination's during the entire era of cold war its pretty normal for global politics.
3. they just destroyed the Buddhist statue even that in their previous regime no one is arguing that , they were without a doubt wrong in their previous regime and that was because they lacked experience and any real logic how to govern a nation, the word Taliban itself means students in Arabic , back then they were bunch of young kids who took up arms to end civil war in their country they succeeded in that and united Afghanistan under their Talibanic identity. They were pretty inexperienced back then and thus they ended up enforcing a totalitarian system which was pretty brutal and in many ways unislamic.
4. you forget to mention how rapists were publicly executed and how harassers were brutally punished. they always lived up to their reputation of providing justice to females something that Pakistan has failed spectacularly. they weren't corrupt. police wasn't bribable at all. yes their were other disadvantages to female before but now the new Taliban have already lifted much of restrictions on female in fact I can say now afghani female are more safer and have more rights than a Pakistani women.
5. What makes a terrorist? is it body count , ideology or just whoever the media blames as terrorist?. if we look at the body count than Americans have started and interfered in absolutely so many senseless wars that they are responsible for massacring entire families and destabilizing entire nations of millions of population, ideologically speaking Soviets , Chinese , North Koreans and Cubans look at the massacres, cruelty and oppression they have committed in the name of their ideology but still no one has a narrative against them, then why a small political group which is just fighting within the boundaries of their own country against a foreign power be considered bad in the first place? just because the media says so I am sorry I am not buying that narrative.
6. actually their is more inflow of people than outflow , the country was always theirs to begin with it was US who intervened and established a puppet government. decades of Ghani's propaganda and building up of narrative against Taliban do have made some people mainly residents of kabul fear for their lives not knowing what taliban are.
7. if we are holding them accountable lets begin with holding Pakistan accountable for crimes in East Pakistan, America accountable for the genocide of native americans, europeans accountable for colonizing , looting and destroying much of Asia and Africa then we shall come to afghanistan.
8. the news have been confirmed false actually and their are evidence that the shooting was actually done by the americans.
9. let it do so, its also affecting Pakistan positively our current relations with Russia and China are at its peak, our links with all the central asian states have also improved, relations with Turkey have also gotten stronger whereas the Indian dreams to use afghanistan in their toolkit of politics have collapsed, we have evened the grounds with India and are looking forward to trading with Russia and central Asia.

FuzailHasanPK

Some are the poeple who legitimately sent their sons to Kashmir and Afghanistan on jihad. Some are the fake liberals who think supporting the changed Taliban will make their image better in the eyes of religious majority. Some blindly glorify ISI and think forcing Taliban on Afghanistan is something to be proud of. To them its okay to celebrate Taliban regime if our country gets something out of it. But majority support it because Taliban follow Islam and Sharia. 

Taliban are not going to cherry pick which matter to be tolerant with. They will implement whatever they can get away with. I frankly would not want to live in a country where I cannot go freely after a certain distance without a male, that would mean I cannot travel internationally or have a job in another city. My biggest dream of life, living alone in my own house would be impossible. Also my male wali could veto against my choice of groom. Hijab would be mandatory, I prefer having the option to choose. My husband could have three other wives without me even knowing as you don't need to ask permission from wife. All of that is backed by sharia law. It's not surprising that us liberal bachas find all that happening to women in another country horrifying.

Pinterestie

We all have to wait &amp; see before making any decision.

EmperorOfWallStreet

Pakistan is a sovereign state and in the realm of international relations every state seeks to further their own agendas to safe gaurd their sovereignty. The Ghani regime was anti Pakistan, openly denied the existence of Durand line, gave safe sanctuaries to anti Pakistan elements including BLA and TTP, provoked ethno-nationalist sentiments in the Pushtoons by funding and backing the likes of Manzoor Pashteen,  and on top of all this allowed RAW to operate very close to our western borders. If end of Ghani regime and coming of Taliban to the power means and end to all this anti Pakistan activity on Afghanistan soil, then yes I'm happy that Taliban seized power. They are more pro Pakistan than any other Afghan faction and their reign can help us further our trade in Central Asia too.

deejawdrop

TTP is different than Afgan taliban.
They may have improved, just wait for 1 year and the truth would be unfold.

I am not a fan of the "culuture" you speak of, buy you can only built a better one by destroying the useless old not by improving it. ( I may have misinterpreted what you wrote but either way )

Change will come if it is must otherwise, pain awaits for them and also to us if we dont change our thoughts.

And they might just be better than the u.s, arrogant white people they thought power was everthing, human are weak without the heart to die for.

And expect the good in people whom you have never faced or have concrete knowledge of and give them some time.

Ibrahim-Lincoln

But hey, they follow the Quran to the letter which is what life should be about. 
Life with Allah and his angels is way more interesting than that on Earth.

iamsupercerealtoday

I do support Taliban. The overall issue is extremely nuanced in a variety of ways, but one thing that must be understood is that the Taliban are Afghans, not us. A lot of people fail to understand that no insurgency can survive for over 2 decades unless it is supported by its people and a deep commitment to a cause that they support. There are a lot of Afghans who hate the Taliban, but there were even more who supported it. Americans needed translators that the Taliban never needed, and many Afghans became translators to collect intelligence about the Americans that they gave to the Taliban. The media often gives voices to the minority, resulting in wrong assumptions about what view is actually the majority view of the population. The American media in particular often deliberately overlooked the role of US forces in alienating the Afghan population with heavy handed tactics and its direct result in a raison d'etre for the Taliban to champion. As Imran Khan would say, marginalization leads to radicalization. Some people would say that the Taliban would just kill you if you resisted. In some cases, that would have been true, but it is a very simplistic way of navigating the complex human terrain in Afghanistan, and there are no simple answers in this region. The Taliban would argue the same thing about the Americans who killed anyone that resisted them. I hear a lot of people in Pakistan's liberal think tanks who often make the case that Taliban do not respect women's rights, prohibiting them from going to school and setting rules for what women can wear. Setting aside the fact the Taliban of the 1990's is long gone and also the fact that women's rights that Pakistanis criticize the Taliban for are equally applicable to Pakistan, what is most baffling is when Pakistanis say that the Northern Alliance had any respect for human rights. US forces, their NATO partners, and Afghan forces extensively promoted women's freedoms to go to school in Afghanistan as a respect for human rights while many ignored the fact that the same US forces, their NATO partners, and Afghan forces almost daily conducted dozens of night raids that terrorized Afghan families. It is well documented that the NATO coalition frequently shot every person in an Afghan house dead, only to realize that they had raided the wrong house. Drone strikes had similar effects, often resulting in abysmal collateral damage and horrific civilian-combatant ratios that had little to no regard for human life. American military operators had no reservations about firing upon a crowd of dozens of people if only one person in that crowd was an adversary. Mass killings were not simply an occurrence, for the NATO coalition and ANA, it was a way of life. Americans had wrongly taught Afghan forces that it was ok to enter a house and shoot anyone if they showed signs of resistance to being raided in their sleep. Is this human rights? What is the point of promoting women's rights and girls going to school if you end up killing those women or the girls who could have gone to school? The Taliban may not have the same respect for women's rights as America or the Afghan government, but at least they have given them the right to live. Women's rights is something that can be fixed in a political process over time. But when you shoot a person dead in a night raid or a drone strike, that person is dead for good, women's freedom will not bring that person back to life. In a country as unstable as Afghanistan, human life should be valued over human rights. What separates the Taliban from other insurgencies is how they have been able to adapt with both the times and take up a new role in the diplomatic space. Ashraf Ghani never understood the dangers of refusing to negotiate with the Taliban. What then happened is that the Taliban decided to negotiate directly with the Americans instead. This was a shrewd political calculation that demonstrated that the acumen of Taliban chess strategy was significantly underestimated by the Afghan elites. For years, the Afghan government had wrongly assumed that the Americans would simply never allow the Taliban to negotiate with them directly without involving the Afghan government because Ashraf Ghani's administration was a puppet regime set up by the Americans themselves. When the Americans surprisingly accepted the Taliban's offer to negotiate directly in Doha, the Afghan government was blindsided, caught flat footed. Effectively, the Afghan government was now made irrelevant. The Taliban had more leverage than even the Americans had initially believed, resulting in many failed negotiations and protracted disputes over the past few years that were ultimately solved on the battlefield. Americans were militarily superior, however they were misguided on when was the right time to actually use it.  Another problem for the US that helped the Taliban cut their teeth was a significant oversight about the concept of Afghan autonomy. For reasons that may never be known, the Americans viewed Afghanistan as essentially a proxy state that could be tamed whenever things got out of hand. As a result, one problem that quietly grew in the background over the years, and crucially ignored by the Americans was that even while there were warning signs well in advance of the withdrawal, the Pentagon never quite fully understood the extent to which the Afghan forces depended on them. The Americans trained the Afghan forces with intelligence and air support, and when they left, they took both assets back home with them, forgetting that the left the keys with someone else. The Taliban never had this problem in the first place because they didn't require the help of any foreign power while the Americans had unknowingly set up the Afghan forces for failure years in advance. The Americans were so determined to leave at any cost that ultimately it would not matter whether the Taliban agreed to their terms or not, the Doha agreement was little more than a formality to give some impression of a graceful exit. The Taliban knew this, under no illusions that the US wanted out whether they agreed or not. This significantly weakened the US' hand and resulted in the Americans gaining virtually nothing in exchange for peace with the Taliban despite the illusion of negotiations in Doha that were mostly one sided in favor of the Taliban. This problem could have been mitigated by not pulling the rug out from under the Afghan govt in order to retain some leverage, but the Americans never considered the consequences of an action they had never anticipated as they never had any interest in what kind of political situation they leave behind. This is one of the biggest reasons to support the Taliban, despite whatever atrocities they may have done. The Taliban are Afghans, and will inherently have an interest in eventually stabilizing the country in a way that the Americans could never have had. The way in which they suddenly pulled the rug out and left abruptly, almost as if to intentionally destabilize the region on their way out should not leave any doubt about the fact that America never had a sincere commitment to the country. As for the Afghan government which was even weaker than America's commitment to the region, not only did it collapse, but it was incredibly corrupt. Most Pakistanis would have known this for years, but the rest of the world didn't. In the long term, such a corrupt government led by the likes of inept leaders such as Ashraf Ghani that depended on American aid would have done incredible damage to the country once the cash from American contractors and their money dried up. Most Afghans have not yet realized it, but in the long term, a strong Taliban government that can rid the country of US military contractors and the corrupt Afghan government will be one of the biggest ways to stabilize the economy for a prosperous future in Afghanistan.

sonicruiser

One sentence mate: begaani shaadi me Abdullah drew ana.  This is what we are.

Theperfectionist11

...it's about percentages.
On one hand, a small percentage thinks that Pakistan should be a religious state.
On the other a larger percentage thinks that a Turkish style, liberal democracy is better.
It's all good.

achughtai

Personally any one who has the ability to rub US s nose in the ground needs to be appreciated. Afghans have the right to rule Afghanistan as they wish. They fought the Soviets and then the Americans and fought for decades for a well deserved victory. Now what they do with the victory is another matter all together. With the victory of the Taliban, Indian influence will wane, cannot afford hostilities on two sides. Now we can concentrate on India.

Good_as_any

Taliban said they will not allow anyone to use Afg territory against anyone, that fact alone made many people reconsider their stance, also people were tired of Ghani and Amarullah Saleh racist slurs and proxies like PTM, BLA against Pakistan so there is that.

aeiou403

Holy shit - this may be a blessing in disguise.

Egil841

Ukraine is also one of the TOP producers of............courage. 

Which is super rare and valuable. 

So, it's time to commoditize some courage. hehehe

PitifulEar3303

There was also graphite.  
But graphite as a mineral is too dirty for batteries.  
It is just carbon and made by companies like SGL Carbon  much more pure.  
Germanium has some revival as SiGe semiconductors for high frequency.  
Antimony was once used to make the lead for printing harder.  
Someone knows what antimony is used for now?  
So there should be reserves, even hidden recyclable reserves.  
Gallium is really interesting.  
There is GaN, GaP, AlInGaP, gallium nitride, gallium phosphide, aluminum indium gallium phosphide.  
All materials used in modern light emitting diodes.

Listelmacher

Ukraine was also the biggest manufacturer of Neon (pre war), one of facility was located in Mariupol...

Esmarial

You know what? 

I think the West and allies should just do a huge resource survey and supply each other, cut off these scummy unethical suppliers like RuZ and XiNa. 

Let them feel the power of customer satisfaction. heheeh

"Transactional??!?"

Trump is not transactional.  Not in the slightest.  He's as "transactional" as a Nigerian prince advance-fee scammer.  The only two things he wants are to always get something for nothing, and to perform an exaggerated drag performance of a rich and successful businessman.

He is a vain, gullible narcissist whose primary use to those immediately around him is as a conduit for grift.  The only transactions he is ever involved in are unwitting ones, whereby he is exploited by others in exchange for flattery.

Trump's orders are to fuck Ukraine over.  He will rationalize any decision he makes to that end after the fact.  The only way to stop him is to surround him overwhelmingly with voices saying "no" and blocking him at every turn.

amitym

folks keep in mind that so called seldom earths are not so seldom as media repeats. There are for sure huge geological differences from continent to continent yet they all came from one big fat chunk of Gondwana and it is rather a question of price, technical accessibility and ecological impact to dig for it. Just recently (actually two years ago) finland announced it tapped into a very huge deposit.

Just make yourself familiar with a simple question.. why does the material come from countries with super low wages and large unused swats of land with very low ecological impact control? see the pattern? now you know.

one historical sidenote: many think russia had and has the largest deposit of uranium. ... well not entirely true. A tiny area in east germany called 'wismut' (as coverup name) was digging for uranium and all that stuff was transported to  - you guessed it - russia for decades. For ecological and economical reasons the extraction ended with the reunification of germany. If the price would fit again.. well, not entirely impossible stuff gets lifted. and so it is with many potential locations.

  
edit: here we go. 19th Nov the following research. "Coal ash — the chalky remnants of coal that has been burned for fuel — has been piling up across the United States for decades. But new research led by The University of Texas at Austin has found that the national coal ash supply contains enough **rare earth elements** to significantly bolster the **national supply without any new mining**"  
[https://www.jsg.utexas.edu/news/2024/11/enormous-cache-of-rare-earth-elements-hidden-inside-coal-ash-waste/](https://www.jsg.utexas.edu/news/2024/11/enormous-cache-of-rare-earth-elements-hidden-inside-coal-ash-waste/)

asdhjasdhlkjashdhgf

This should be shouted from the rooftops in the entire west and most of all in the US.

Mormegil1971

vergorli

This war was always a resource play for Putin.  Once natural gas was discovered off Crimea Putin had to invade.  The rest is just frosting on the cake.

sunshinebread52

We're talking about a dumbass who succeeded at bankrupting a freaking casino. (multiple times). I don't think he understand what a good deal really is.

Maple_Chef

3d_blunder

Ok_Salamander_354

Gallium is used in the production of basically every AESA radar from the one used in the PATRIOT to the F-35.

DownvoteDynamo

Dear heroes, please bill my government a $Billion dollars per gram for gallium.  Quickly sign a contract with us before January.   Maybe a trade that includes 155 other things.  Am I droning on?   Also, please do not forget your farmers, care providers, teachers, and cranky old fuckers.  As I am one of those.   Not one of yours, one of those who wore green covers in America.   Slava Ukrani.

MAXQDee-314

USA cant arm Ukraine, it lacks the courage, will and actual capacity. They just dont admit the capacity issue.

500 billion payback for 100 billion in aid. This is simply usury.

Ok-Act-374

They have to sign this deal before ever seeing a peace plan. It's utterly ridiculous.

Flaky-Jim

Complete madness. Obscene greed by Trump.

jncheese

It is blackmail. The worse of a kind, blatant and public, against a nation which is currently under invasion by an imperialistic force. And noone is ashamed.

purpleisreality

I mean the US has already violated the Budapest Memorandum.

I really do feel for the Ukrainian people. The once great state of American has fallen. The rest of the world better start sanctioning us because we're only a month into this regime -- if it ever ends. We are not to be trusted, not now, not ever. Ukraine shouldn't sign any deal with us, or at least not in good faith because nothing we did was apparently in good faith.

It is now more imperative than ever that Ukraine wins. They must to build a strong a powerful Europe and defeat Russia. This is a very dark hour on the roadmap to victory.

Zelensky should publicly say sure, you can have the 500bn in minerals if Trump denounces Putin and forces the the Russian military out of Ukraine/Crimea.

Hawkwise83

Pure extortion plain and simple and no way should Ukraine give in.


Its made all the more strange they are after lithium when Trump has just torpedoed the clean energy investment incl. battery storage projects and is sabotaging EVs where the vast majority of it is going to.

Icy_Collar_1072

Just do what Russia did with the "we won't attack you if you lose the nukes agreement" sign the deal with Trump then just ignore what you promised, Trump seems to respect dishonesty and lies.

PerformerOk450

Morepork69

Honestly, I'm torn about what Ukraine and Zelensky should do.

There are actually solid arguments for signing it, considering that the U.S. is never going to recover $500 billion from this situation. Ukraine has natural resources, but it's far from being an Eldorado, and massive investments would be needed just to modernize or repair extraction infrastructure. Trump is lost in his "deal-making" fantasies, and if signing some absurd piece of paper helps avoid completely alienating the U.S. administration, it might actually be a rational move.

But at the same time, the deal is so utterly disgraceful in its logic, offering nothing in return, no guarantees, no future support. Trump, Vance, and their ilk have been so repugnant in their cynicism and contempt for Ukraine that, at some point, just for the sake of dignity, I’d feel an overwhelming urge to tell them to go fuck themselves. I wish Zelensky would just say: *"I am the president of a nation at war, a nation that was given three days to survive. We have held out for three years against an army vastly superior in numbers and firepower. If you think your sheer power gives you the right to speak to Ukraine this way, then go fuck yourselves."*

That might not be the smartest move, but sometimes, truth has value in and of itself. The idea that these power-drunk, toxic fools believe they have the right to exploit a nation in distress just because it needs them disgusts me to my core. It violates every basic principle of human decency.

Capital_Philosophy15

Not only that but you already know he won’t honor the agreement.

EvilFroeschken

Trump DESTROYED all the efforts US made to be reliable partner with other western nations in just one fucking month. This is irreparable, governments will always have this in backs of their heads that all it takes it for Americans to elect one unhinged clearly russian asset to flip everything on it’s head.

pantrokator-bezsens

If only Ukraine had some signed agreement that protects against blackmail and invasion from America and Russia. If only...

Comfortable-Gas4425

When someone is down because they are relentlessly attacked by a much larger bully, the US comes by to put their foot on the throat of the victim to shake them down.

atlasfailed11

Call the bluff. Negotiate on your own account with the Russians, you don't need the Americans to surrender. If I would be blackmailed like that, I'd hand it over to the Russians, just to spite. Let's see then if the Americans won't come rushing to secure the spoils.

goodbyclunky

500 billion dollars in minerals for 120 billion in aid. Hey thats like a mortgage…

xiaopewpew

Inside_Ad_7162

Competitive_Bee2596

Trump's request wasn't 500 billion. That's what it was at the start. Which most people were okay with.  However, when the document arrived, it said Trump wanted 50% of everything forever.  Insane.

FactorUnable78

That demand is a future court case guaranteed

RepulsiveMetal8713

At this point I think the plan is for the US to sell the rights back to Russia.

Sndr666

This is silly, if anything they should want the US to have an interest there so that they are obligated to protect their own interests against their potential loss

Cautious_Salad_245

Good play. Trump will be able to say he single handedly earned 500b for the nation. Americans will surely make him president for life.

Old_Insurance1673

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