Public opinion strongly opposes any potential territorial concessions that Ukraine might make in peace negotiations with Russia. Many commenters highlight the importance of Ukraine's sovereignty and express deep skepticism regarding the motivations of global leaders involved in the negotiations. There is a prevailing sentiment of anger and disbelief at the idea of Ukraine being sidelined in discussions that affect its territorial integrity, exacerbated by frustrations towards U.S. leadership, particularly Trump.

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&gt; The deal would mean Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky giving up the entire eastern Donbas, Crimea and parts of Luhansk and Donetsk, where fighting is still raging, unnamed sources told Bloomberg.

&gt; Ukraine has not agreed to the proposed deal, Bloomberg reported

gradientz

US-Russia peace deal?  To end our war with Russia?

SidewaysFancyPrance

SadBadPuppyDad

I guess the Russians reminded Trump of the kompromat they have on him.

wyvernx02

Why would anyone who isn’t working for Putin agree to this

NickYuk

ah yes, giving up territory to russia, which is very well-known for honoring its deals and definitely won't just immediately start attacking again after getting the land (because who the fuck is going to stop them)

swamp_god

Didn’t he try this before and Ukraine told him to kick rocks?

GoGoGadgetElbowSkis

Trump is compromised. All the tough talk in the past couple months has been nonsense. Another clue was his whining about Russia not being in the G8 anymore

Choppergold

It's the same shit as always with Trump and Putin

* Russia gets to keep what it's currently occupying 
* Ukraine is barred from joining NATO
* Which allows Russia to invade Ukraine a 3rd time in the next 15 years without Ukraine getting aid from foreign troops. They invaded in 2014. Then 8 years later in 2022. And they'll invade again by 2040.

dating_derp

I hope our European allies have more sense than to reward Russia/Putin for their invasion.

C_Kent_

Trump doesn’t give a shit what is in the deal. He just wants a deal so he can tell everyone he brokered “The biggest and best deal ever. It would be impossible for anyone else to make a deal like this!”

tg19801980

I know Mr Zelenskyy refused to give up a quarter of his country for no gain and no security the last few times it's been suggested, but I really think THIS TIME will work...

SumpkinPeeds

So Ukraine is supposed to surrender and cede land, just like that, without Security guarantees and with their mineral resources exploited? What a deal.

rapidcreek409

Not only a distraction, but a complete misrepresentation. This deal gives Russia everything it wants, and is basically making Ukraine capitulate (and they have not agreed yet)

MrRightHanded

A 'peace' deal that divides up another country's land. That is so on brand for America

Livid-Movie79

Another day, another distraction from the epstein files.

Nekowulf

inactivemember99

Didn't Russian TV mention they have blackmail over trump like a week ago? It's embarrassing how common knowledge it is in Russia. I mean what other reason would there be for trump to always give Putin everything he wants when they have no ground to stand on?

trunksshinohara

This is a prelude to WW3 because the bitterness out of this conflict will reignite in later years. We call this appeasement. This is not a deal. This is the Sudetenland aka Peace in our time Chamberlain repeating itself. 

Trump will come out and say this is a win…and Fox News propaganda will push his talking points for his “Nobel Peace” prize quest…

Efficient_Resist_287

On behalf of the Americans who aren’t some combination of idiotic, fascist, and traitors, I apologize to the world that we have yet again saddled everyone with this horrible disease of a human.

bbqsox

Wow another peace deal that excludes Ukraine from negotiations and unsurprisingly gives Russia everything it wants. I’m sure Ukraine will love it

Lysol3435

accountabilitycounts

Well we did promise to protect Ukraine in exchange for giving up nuclear weapons. That clearly hasn’t worked out well…so why are we surprised we’re giving up their land too? 

Awful administration. What a horrible situation.

im_just_a_nerd

Ukraine is obviously never going to accept any deal between Russia and the US

captaincanada84

Why are we letting a child rapist paedophile with obvious kompromat against him negotiate anything more than his own lengthy prison sentence?

ilikebiiiigdicks

RoamingDrunk

Well, Russia probably wrote the deal themselves. Of course it favors them.

halfsweethalfstreet

They just want to paint Ukraine as the bad guys. "See Russia wants peace! But Ukraine wants more war." Any negotiation that takes place without Ukraine is a non-starter and political theater.

TemporaryCaptain23

So once again Donald's Big plan is to Cave to Putin and give him exactly what he wants. He's such a great deal maker! Say what you want about Kamala but she was right about this, he's weak and sucks up to strong men.

lonewolfncub3k

IndomitableThomunism

eflowers62

Not gunna hold and release the Epstein files

Unfair_Commercial

CheesecakeHorror3410

antilittlepink

Why is this even news? It's not like Ukraine would sign such a one-sided deal

malici606

Sprittt

There's no win for Russia here. Ukraine won't agree to this. This is just Trump distracting from Epstein with the exact same thing he tried earlier in the year.

Amenian

Even if you thought that Russia were somehow trustworthy, this sort of deal is insane. The message is basically: if you launch a full-scale invasion of another country and manage to hold onto enough of their land for long enough, the US will come along and let you have it.

Three_Froggy_Problem

Interesting how a “peace deal” is being negotiated without Ukraines approval or input.

ShirtPitiful8872

“US-Russia Peace Deal” says it all. No mention of Ukraine at all. Trump spreading his cheeks for daddy Putin once again

prickwhowaspromised

This would make much more sense if the U.S. and Russia were at war.  But making these plans without really even having the other party (Ukraine) in the negotiations, is not only asinine but pointless.

Donald Trump acts as such a good Russian asset.  Money well spent.

DramaticWesley

Man....what did he do on that island with those kids?!

Separate_Custard_754

He put tariffs on India and essentially shat on Ukraine to pull this crap?

hinterstoisser

Trump can suck a dick… traitorous scum. (we all know Putin’s cock is the one he sucks.)

Simplyspent

Looks like Putin has a copy of the files as well 😂

nopointinlife1234

willfrodo

Jsoledout

voyagerdoge

Trump is just a Russian operative. They have something on him.

SheepherderNo6320

This won't be honored by Ukraine and NATO will likely back them. I dont think this really changes anything except the script Trump will use for his political theater when he pretends it is Ukraine that broke the peace deal. 

RexDraco

You. Don't. Cede. Land. To. Invaders!

Russia is learning that if it can take land and hold it for a few years the US will just get frustrated and give it to them. If this disaster goes through we will see another invasion as soon as Russia builds back its military.

Withyhydra

So Ukraine will say no and we’re back to our regularly scheduled war

SilentAntagonist

It’s all part of their plan.

Now Zelinsky is gonna look like he doesn’t want a deal, and Trump is gonna use that as an excuse to stop weapons to Ukraine.

The puppet will do as he is told by his master.

bondafong

/u/Maleficent-Show4948 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.

All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1jyv64a/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_ukraine_messed_up_by_not/), in /r/DeltaLog.

Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.

^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

DeltaBot

Negotiating a truce in April would mean that Ukraine wouldn't get back the large areas they recaptured in Kharkiv and Kherson. The ground Russia has captured in the east since then is far less significant.  So Ukraine is closer to regaining control of their territory than they were in April 2022.

They have also ground the Russian army down to the point it has nearly expended it cold War tank stocks. Meanwhile, Ukraine is using more and more Western equipment, including fighter jets. They are also hitting back at Ruasia with long-range drone strikes. They have puahed the Russian Navy all the way back to Novorossiysk. Ukraine is in a stronger position now than they were in April 2022.

Libarate

2 years of conflict haven’t “helped protect Ukraines sovereignty”, it’s the sole reason Ukraine still exists as a nation. They don’t have a choice. 

It’s made their way towards NATO or any other western alliance much more likely long term, as Ukraine now possesses the single strongest military in Europe excluding Russia - by far. The talking points about NATO now somehow being out of reach, is entirely put forth by the US administration to try and appease Russia short term.

Trump doesn’t have a solution and he has yet to present one, as I understand it. It’s very likely he is being dragged around by Putin, as predicted. The entire view is sort of reliant on an unknown, that is that Russia would have stopped after negotiations in 2022. Everything indicates they wouldn’t have, and neither EU or US countries would have given security guarantees without knowing the scope of the war. Now it’s more likely, because Russia has proven themselves quite incompetent.

LankyTumbleweeds

Let's say that you are negotiating with Russia in 2022, as you said.

Can you trust what Russia says in the negotiations?

Even if the negotiations reach an agreement, can you trust that Russia will keep that agreement?

How can you negotiate when you can't trust anything about Russia?

minaminonoeru

Ukraine believed that the US would not abandon them. They were wrong. But it was a valid belief for them to hold.

I agree considering the US leaving them, they had the upper hand in negotiations with US, but you cannot say they were wrong for believing the US would stick through with them in the war. They probably rightfully believed they could get much better terms if the US continued helping them

Even-Ad-9930

If you actually read the terms of that draft agreement (short version: Ukraine may only have a small, weak army with only short range weapons + russia gets to veto the US &amp; EU giving military aid) it's pretty obvious why they didn't agree.

Liquid_Cascabel

There is no credible evidence Russia was ready to accept a truce on conditions favourable to Ukraine.

Ukraine can capitulate any time it wants, nothing has changed since 2022 in that regard.

External-Hunter-7009

Three years of war have definitely changed Europe's perspective on Russia. While true that fringe parties have raised in popularity, the mainstream of European politics has finally accepted that Russia is an enemy and not a country you can trust or have economic relations with. This shift in perspective has allowed Europe to finally stop buying high quantities of Russian fossil fuels, slowing down their economy significantly (if you ignore the GDP boost from war production, the economy is quite weak at the moment). Europe would have gone back to sleep had Ukraine negotiated back then and we would probably just have a Minsk 3 agreement.

Now, from Ukraine's perspective, is that worth three years of war? Russia can rearm and regroup considerably faster than Ukraine if we don't consider foreign support, which would almost certainly be tiny in this timeline. This rearming, alongside with lessons learned from the first attempt, would probably allow Russia to go for the kill and a full conquest of Ukraine after a few years of relative peace. So, from Ukraine's perspective, these years of war have given the state a higher likelihood of survival for the longer term than a short term peace would have achieved.

Just as a final remark, I ignored the USA in this analysis because its political indecision on whether to become isolationist means that European actions matter significantly more for Ukraine than American actions over the long term

latingamer1

Do you support Ukraine because it sounds like you think Ukraine should have just given into demands

xxcatdogcatdogxx

There is no negotiating with Russia, not genuinely and certainly not long term. At best, they would gain a momentary reprieve similar to the Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014. Russia's ambitions are not as obvious as what they claim. To truly understand the depth of this conflict you have to have some understanding of the geography, history, and culture of the entire region.

Russia has a historical precedence of expanding to enormous size throughout history, but the reason for this isn't so simple as a desire for expansion. The geography of Russia is largely flat and difficult to defend. Historically, this made Russia vulnerable to attacks in all directions. If a large army won a decisive battle in this landscape, there would be very little strategic defensive options to consolidate and stop the bleeding. To remedy this problem, Russia adopted a strategy of expansion to geographic landmarks that could be strategically defended as chokepoints. If you study the borders of the U.S.S.R you will notice it is not just a mindless expansion blob. It systematically stops its expansion at important, strategically defensible landmarks. Caucus mountains, the Pacific Ocean, Crimea to have access to warm-water port (this is one of their absolute obsessions geopolitically). This is due to a long lasting trauma within the Russian psyche of attacks from all sides, their size is their survival strategy.

After the fall of the U.S.S.R, this fear did not diminish. You can see it to this day, with relentless anti NATO talking points and a near paranoid schizophrenic view of threats from the outside world. Putin  , in particular, was raised in an intelligence community well versed in this worldview and he understands as much as anyone the vulnerability that the land lost in the collapse of the U.S.S.R made possible. In order to address what he views as a tactical weakness and lost global security, his life ambition is to reclaim those lands and right the wrongs of the past.

Ukraine is in the way. Poland is in the way. The Baltics are in the way. Moldova is in the way. Georgia is in the way. He can not achieve his ultimate geopolitical ambitions with negotiations and peace talks. If any willingness to negotiate or reconcile exists, it is simply to serve as another manipulative way to later conquer the state in question. He uses many excuses to justify his expansionist philosophy. Naziism, a historical appeal to the right of the land, the unjustness of the collapse of the U.S.S.R, NATO expanision. But all of these excuses are there to work as Cassus Belli for reclaiming lost soviet defensive positions.

So what does this mean? It means that any negotiation on the part of Ukraine would be under false pretenses. There is no intention of peace, no bridge to coexistence, not really. Ukraines existence as a sovereign nation is simply incompatible with Russia's current geopolitical strategy. Their survival relies not on diplomacy, but on the grim understanding that existence means resisting Russia long enough for them to change course, or at least delay their conquests long enough for Ukraine to reorganize. Whether they can survive is another question, but geopolitically these forces are in a conflict that can only be truly solves if Russia changes course, or if Ukraine ceases to exist as an independent state.

  
Only NATO offers any guarantee of security, Biden couldn't offer it, and a state like Russia would never honor it. The Ukrainians are playing correctly the only cards they have to play. Will it be enough, probably not, but that is not a tactical mistake on their part but the result of existential reality.

PurposeImpossible554

\&gt;I hold nothing but great regards and admiration for President Zelenskyy.

Why? He's kidnapping his country's citizens and forcing them to fight in a war.

Kedulus

Russia would not have signed any agreement that would have benefited Ukraine. 

Their play was to influence the 2024 election and get Trump in and cut off US aid, so why wouldn't they have just waited that out?

Kaiisim

There have been outbreaks of conflict on that border for decades, but this most recent conflict is unmissable.


Countries cannot avoid answering to their public about support and their plans for dealing with either party in the conflict. 


As far as protecting sovereignty the sheer publicity on the global stage has affected public opinion, which plays a huge role in sovereignty - after all things are what people believe them to be, so if a great many more people understand the conflict, stop calling Ukraine "The Ukraine" and engage in other legitimising and solidarity behaviours it reeforces - this place, these people, this culture is it's own thing and will not be overcome by an invading force. 

Dry_Bumblebee1111

[deleted]

&gt;I believe that Ukraine messed up by not negotiating with Russia in April 2022 . If we rewind back in time , Ukraine had pushed out Russian forces out of Kyiv .. There were ongoing negotiations between Russia and Ukraine in Turkey and Russia was ready for a truce  

  

no they weren't.  

  

If you listen to people who actually attended the talks; Russia insisted on last minute changes to the deal, that completed upended it.   

  

This means Russia were either not negotiating in good faith, or they were hoping the west would fold.

earblah

Russia is massive, it's not invading Ukraine for a few more cities.   They want to completely control Ukraine.


End goal is recreation of the ussr borders.


Europe have dropped the ball by relying on usa. 


Europeans should be ashamed the way they let Russia with a gdp a small fraction of theirs bully them.    

Rude_Egg_6204

For negotiations there needs to be trust that agreements will be honored. In 2022, like now, Ukraine didnt trust Russia to negotiate in good faith. Also all options presented by Russia were untenable. 

Emergency_Word_7123

I would argue they messed up by not negotiating in 2016.

RedMarsRepublic

Russia isnt interested in negotiating! Ediot! Trump is Putins cheerleader

Possible-Tower4227

Amazing-Room-4936

Paul_the_surfer

Still though, they agreed to exchange all heavily wounded POWs and all POWs under age of 25.

hypnotoad94

designbydesign

They need to bomb the rest of their jets.

Edexote

Time for more drones from Ukraine hitting Russia.

urlond

RustCohle_23

After yesterday I'm surprised they even met. Did Russian come with Ryanair

RemnantOfSpotOn

By the next time, when Ukraine will have destroyed some more irreplaceable equipment they may have more willingness to establish that peace

got_light

vergorli

*(translated by Google because I'm lazy and it's good enough)*

Proposals of the Russian Federation (Memorandum) on the settlement of the Ukrainian crisis

Section I

Main parameters of the final settlement

- International legal recognition of the incorporation of Crimea, the LPR, the DPR, the Zaporizhia and Kherson regions into the Russian Federation; complete withdrawal of units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and other paramilitary formations of Ukraine from their territories;
- neutrality of Ukraine, which implies its refusal to join military alliances and coalitions, as well as a ban on any military activity of third states on the territory of Ukraine and the deployment of foreign armed formations, military bases, and military infrastructure there;
termination of and refusal to conclude in the future international treaties and agreements incompatible with the provisions of paragraph 2 of this Section;
- confirmation of the status of Ukraine as a state that does not possess nuclear and other WMD, with the establishment of a direct ban on their acceptance, transit and deployment on the territory of Ukraine;
- establishment of the maximum number of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and other military formations of Ukraine, the maximum number of weapons and military equipment and their permissible characteristics; dissolution of Ukrainian nationalist formations within the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the National Guard;
- ensuring the full rights, freedoms and interests of the Russian and Russian-speaking population; granting the Russian language the status of an official language;
- legislative prohibition of the glorification and propaganda of Nazism and neo-Nazism, dissolution of nationalist organizations, parties;
- lifting of all current and refusal to introduce new economic sanctions, prohibitions and restrictive measures between the Russian Federation and Ukraine;
- resolution of a range of issues related to family reunification and displaced persons;
- waiver of mutual claims in connection with damage caused in military operations;
- lifting of restrictions regarding the UOC;
- phased restoration of diplomatic and economic relations (including gas transit), transport and other communications, including with third countries;

Section II

Terms of the Ceasefire

Option 1.

Beginning of the complete withdrawal of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and other paramilitary formations of Ukraine from the territory of the Russian Federation, including the DPR, LPR, Zaporizhia and Kherson regions, and their withdrawal to a distance from the borders of the Russian Federation agreed upon by the Parties in accordance with the approved Regulation.

Option 2. "Package Proposal":

- Prohibition on the redeployment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and other paramilitary formations of Ukraine, with the exception of movements for the purpose of withdrawal to a distance from the borders of the Russian Federation agreed upon by the Parties;
- Termination of mobilization and beginning of demobilization;
- Termination of foreign supplies of military products and foreign military assistance to Ukraine, including the provision of satellite communications services and the provision of intelligence;
- Exclusion of the military presence of third countries on the territory of Ukraine, termination of the participation of foreign specialists in military operations on the side of Ukraine;
- Guarantee of Ukraine's renunciation of sabotage and subversive activities against the Russian Federation and its citizens;
creation of a bilateral Ceasefire Monitoring and Control Center;
- mutual amnesty of "political prisoners" and release of detained civilians:
- lifting of martial law in Ukraine;
- announcement of the date of the elections of the President of Ukraine and the Verkhovna Rada, which must take place no later than 100 days after the lifting of martial law;
- signing of the Agreement on the implementation of the provisions contained in Section I.

Section III

Sequence of steps and deadlines for their implementation

- beginning of work on the text of the Agreement;
- declaration of a 2-3-day truce to collect the bodies of the dead in the "gray zone";
- unilateral transfer of 6,000 bodies of servicemen of the Armed Forces of Ukraine to the Ukrainian Armed Forces;
- signing of the Memorandum on the Ceasefire with specific dates for the implementation of all its provisions and determination of the date of signing of the future Agreement on the Final Settlement (hereinafter referred to as the Agreement);
- from the moment of the beginning of the withdrawal of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, a 30-day ceasefire is established. In this case, the complete withdrawal of the Ukrainian Armed Forces from the territory of the Russian Federation and the full implementation of the “package agreement” must be carried out within these 30 days;
- holding elections, forming government bodies on the territory of Ukraine;
- signing the Treaty;
- approval of the signed Treaty by a legally binding resolution of the UN Security Council;
- ratification, entry into force and implementation of the Treaty.

orthoxerox

Just a reminder that you can donate directly to Ukraine’s government to pay for defence, medical care, education etc here U24.gov.ua

leginfr

Russia wants to get rid of the next batch of 40.

silverionmox

Until trump and some others in the West keep giving putin hope, they won't stop.

BMP83

There was absolutely zero chance they would agree 2 days ago.  Less than zero after the drone attack by Ukraine.   That would look like Russia signaling weakness and defeat and cripple Putin’s authority at home.

Flipadelphia26

Iamoggierock

Can these useless things just be stopped?

Military power is the only way that drives Tsars forces away.

articman123

dnemonicterrier

Well duh. These "talks" are a massive waste of time and money.

djquu

Well Russia needs to present something “as result” of every such meeting to keep fooling people

Ventriloquist_Voice

Can’t imagine how awkward the Russian delegates felt walking in there today.  Wonder if any of the Ukrainians asked if they smelt smoke

noquarter1000

A bunch of stupidity from the Russians for not stopping the fire. 

I think the Ukrainians will give them a finger.

It seems that reaching a ceasefire and a peace agreement in this war will be quite difficult. Both sides are essentially demanding the other's capitulation. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like it will end anytime soon , this war might still drag on for several more years.

Pedro_P11

Ukrainian President Zelenskyy has rejected Russian demands to cede territory as part of ongoing peace negotiations ahead of a summit between U.S. and Russian leaders.

Ukraine-Russia Conflict and Peace Negotiations

Why This Matters

Public Sentiment Summary

Highlighted Comments

Parties Involved

What the people want