Public opinion displays a spectrum of sentiment ranging from strong nationalism supporting India's defense posture to criticism of both countries for perpetuating conflict, particularly surrounding Kashmir. Many express frustration at the external influence of the U.S. and call for long-term peace strategies instead of reactive measures. The overall mood is a complex mix of anger, concern for civilian safety, and skepticism towards both governments.

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Their leader  Suleiman Shah (aka Hashim Musa) who was also shot is ex-SSG commando(  Pakistani special forces)

Yeah but keep giving IMF loans to Pakistan to ‘fight terrorism’ when its state sponsored.

Also Al Jazzera foreign nationals who are armed and shoot at military arent ‘suspects’. They are terrorists.

[deleted]

Pakistan is a failed state that needs to be designated as a state sponsor of terrorism.

hakunakh

What’s the underline issue of this war? Besides Kashmir, or is it about Kashmir?

cdistefa

Very convenient that they got the culprits right when the opposition was raising issues about their strategy and inaction. I’d love to believe that it’s true, but the leadership has been pretty slimy about all their actions and has spent more time covering their asses rather than talking about the truth.

testuser514

bellend1991

First of all, If worrying about your country makes you uneasy, its natural! Secondly, everyone cab have opinions but please do think this way- would giving kashmir to pakistan actually help kashmir? Your friends are talking about “hindutva” mentality but they need to understand geopolitics and the history of Pakistanis who can do anything they have to do in the name of religion. You are a student of political science- I would suggest you study the actual history and how the world works- trust me this would help you understand the things better. Also, they calling you “right-wing” just on the basis of kashmir issue makes them sound lame. Hope this helps :). Education is the key!

Virtual-Relation7230

Your friends watch German shepherd, right? ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|trollface)

Chaosgenerater

aise dost to bc jaha dikhe vaha maro, darpok salle, stay away bhai kalko ladai jhagde mai terko bhi samne walo ko deke bhag jaye

Bright-Ranger-3500

Pak has always been more active in information warfare and that is the reason they always win in the narrative wars.

Ask them about the so called hindu terror people. How many are convicted for terror?

They will change the topic to gujrat riots. Then you can talk about how the riots happened and how they were investigated by central agencies when the central govt was from another party. 

Then you talk about the definition of terrorism and start talking about how we are different. 

You will see them abuse and block you  as they have no valid answers.

FullMasterpiece6058

Look at the population change of minorities in India and then ask your friends about the same in their countries? The fact that you call Pakistanis who are not condemning the killing of innocent tourists as your friends is probably the biggest indicator of what you’re trying do with your post here. Kashmir was a Hindu and Buddhist majority state for the longest time in history till people were displaced from there but you and your friends don’t bring that up. Your uneasiness seems like a farce to me.

rathoras

This is exactly the reason why isi is far ahead in information warfare.

Had you been better informed you would have been able to counter all of their points.

When someone mentions hindutva terror ask them to enumerate a single instance of a terrorist incident that was properly investigated and accused and convicted.


They may claim godse or some mob lynching incident in some place.  Now you can tell them defination of terrorism and ask them  

Now they will divert to gujrat riots. You can question them about how they started and how it was investigated and how central agencies investigated everything.

By now they would be frustrated and will call you andhbhakt and block you.

Lack of narrative building and awareness is the reason why the other narrative is strong.

Your friends are somewhat stupid, and it's wrong to blindly follow what your friends say. If you wish to, read about the matter in depth FROM OFFICIAL SOURCES. Use statistics and recorded interrogations, interviews and trusted sources to state your own opinion.

Yes, Kashmiri deaths are an unnecessary result of the bloodshed b/w the two nations, however supporting your own country is not wrong in this scenario. 26 civilians died in India, and the response is solely a retaliation to that attack. It's sad to know a kid was caught in the shellings done by the Indian military. Rn, Pakistan is shelling parts of Indian Occupied Kashmir. At the end of the day, you shouldn't support war, but supporting your own country isn't inherently wrong, as long as you aren't using it to justify the unnecessary murder of civilians on the other side.

Top_Invite2424

&gt;What's really happening on the ground?

One cannot know for sure. Both nations media is highly nationalistic and is definitely presenting more drama than truth.

&gt;Are ordinary people being targeted ?

Pakistanis reported about 30 civilians dead after the initial strike on 7th of May. Then again, that's what they claim meanwhile India claims no such things happened. It is however not out of the realms of possibilities that civilians casualties did happen considering that many people did record the explosions, so definitely some would have been too close.

Then Pakistan attacked across the border and that led to 26 deaths on Indian side. To and fro fire continued then on. Just wanted to say tho, cross border artillery attacks aren't new, has happened many times before for no reason and each time civilians do get hurt. Now you can call it deliberate attack on civilians or just incompetence at the hands of Pakistanis.

&gt;What are the potential pros and cons if Kashmir were to become part of Pakistan?

Only pros would be that a headache will be gone. But it has lots of cons. Giving it away would make us loose strategic territory. It would also mean that other seperatist factions (Khalistani, Nagas etc) will now want their own land too. It would create a huge ruckus to manage a transition. And biggest of all, it'll hurt the pride as the land has been fought for since the creation of the nation. %hats by both countries want it.

We should have held a referendum which was promised btw and decided about Kashmiri freedom then and there only.

&gt;How accurate are the claims of "Hindutva terrorism"?

Very. Just google "mob lynching" and you'll find a bunch of random news articles about Hinduism related murders. There is a list on the wiki too. Although idk what that has to do with what's going with Pakistan rn.

&gt;Are they exaggerated, or is there real cause for concern?

It's under played. Most people are oblivious to it and many are outright in denail that yes hindus too can kill in the name of the religion. It isn't a cause of concern as media hardly talks about it unlike all this "thook jihad", "UPSC jihad" crap. But to small communities it is concerning to know that they might be killed in the name of religion and nothing will be done to get them justice.

kawaii_hito

Your friends also sound uneasy about this whole thing and it seems to be that you're all trying to develop a more rounded understanding of it - them with your views, yours with theirs. Putting nationality aside, you've to see who gains what from this situation. Kashmir has always been something that political parties have used historically to gain currency with the rest of India and perhaps similarly in Pakistan, I don't know too much about that so won't say. To keep things tense there has been beneficial all round.   
From my understanding of what Kashmiris want for themselves, whether here or there or autonomy - opinion is divided but what they unanimously want is for the army to not be in their faces every day everywhere. There is one army person per 5 people in Kashmir and that's not a great way to live.   
I think we can also be sensible enough to not conflate everyone as 'Pakistan' - thanks now to the internet, we can see that many people there also don't want this conflict, are not religious bigots, have condemned the killings on both side. Same as here. Developing a critique is not being anti-national. That is actually what political parties are afraid of - thinking individuals. They want a herd they can control and most of the mainstream media we have is doing that work for them.   
Be open to what your friends are saying, read around it. Also put forth your ideas backed by other texts, thoughts, films. Keep the back and forth going in the spirit of developing your own thought.

typingslowlyslowly

India has had Hindu-Islamic tensions for centuries. There is no minority oppression, there is communal conflict (if it was just minority oppression, you wouldn't see violence like the one in Muzaffarabad for example; and also other minorities like the Jains, Parsis, etc. would side with the Muslims - that's not happening). 

But that is completely a separate issue. The India-Pakistan conflict is about the terrorism that Pakistan inflicts upon us. You need new friends- not the dumb ones you currently have.

On a global level, 

Hindutva is a religion appreciated for its peace and tolerance. Without a doubt the ruling party has strong opinions and consistent support to the majority. But the major question is: that’s how nations really work don’t they? Let’s talk about the fall of Hindus and conversions of Hindus in Pakistan over the years. And now let’s talk about Hinduism and its tolerance- Number of Muslims have been increased over the years unlike our neighbours. Also see the facts about Muslim Dominance in European countries they way things ar getting escalated. So the point hindutva terrorism is baseless. 

Second point: Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and should be given to them. Very recent news Pakistan stock market crashed and have PSE (Pakistan stock exchange) has halted trading after a 7% straight fall. Which is rarest of all. Let’s talk about the Baloch area in Pakistan. People there don’t want to be associated with Pakistan because it has never been neutral to all its states. Do you think it can do justice to Kashmir. Even if it’s willing to do does it have that money and power to keep it as it is and safe ofc ? 

Being right wing- people have different political views. The only thing they forget is how a country really functions. 

In a democracy as big as us, it’s not just difficult but impossible to keep everyone happy for peace and goes without saying the majority should be thought of. Let’s say China- it’s the dictator rule that has let them to where they are today despite so many challenges and being such a big country and sharing borders with so many countries. Not saying that I am in favour of dictatorship. But the world is a harsh place and even harder if you are not powerful and weak. For the matter of fact see Srilanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan today.

SweatyMasterpiece931

India and pakistan are both to blame for kashmir.  Two nuclear powers are fighting over a state and the people of the state have no voice.  India has treated indian occupied kashmir horrifically with hundreds of thousands of innocents getting disappeared, raped, killed, imprisoned.  It is the most militarized place in the world which is absolutely insane.  Kashmiris were promised a plebiscite which they to date have not yet received.  Pakistans control over kashmir has also not been great.  The hindu population is poorly treated and they collectively live in poorer conditions, as is the nature of a less prosperous country.  

Kashmiris dont all hate hindus.  Most of them want the pandits to return, and obviously the right thing to do is allow everyone the right to return to their land. Kashmiris are ordinary people who want peace and autonomy, which has been repeatedly cut and taken away by both of these nuclear powers.  Most kashmiris in IOK want to form their own country and can you blame them after decades of mistreatment?  After such torrential abuse there will be extremists who want to take things into their own hands with violence, and that of course is something horrible and leads of tragedy.  But it’s also not surprising for a caged abused dog to bite back. 

If people fear kashmiris will vote to live in pakistan they should reflect on why they would choose to live in a more unstable, corrupt, poor country over india.  They should ask themselves if india is truly an unproblematic character in this conflict and think about what india should do for kashmiris living in the awful conditions they live in now.  If they try to justify all of the atrocious acts of violence with the cover of terrorism they are full of nonsense and have underlying islamophobia.  The terrorists are liberationists but if you give them fewer and weaker reasons to exist wouldnt that do more damage to their cause than another round of bullets? For every terrorist or innocent you murder you give fuel to the anger of the next generation.

I am being harsh on india because no one ever is when it comes to kashmir, but obviously i acknowledge pakistan is awful with regard to kashmiris as well.  Both countries use kashmir for political reasons and that why they are cruel to kashmiris.  To pakistan and india, kashmiris are disposable casualties in the greater scheme of land aggregation and political power.  It is truly sickening.

Due_Ad_4635

This infuriates me, but let me calm down.

Let’s start from the beginning.

Kashmir: An ancient part of Sanatan Dharma, the place where the Vedas originated, where our monks went to attain knowledge and all.
Kashmir has been a cradle of Indian spirituality and philosophy, home to scholars like Abhinavagupta, and the origin of Shaivism (Kashmir Shaivism). It was a significant center for Sanskrit learning, attracting seekers from all over the Indian subcontinent and beyond. The Nilamata Purana and Rajatarangini chronicle its deep cultural and religious relevance. And many more ....

Literally the heaven on Earth — which has not been accessible for all these years because of the never-ending issue with Pakistan.

And they are saying to give it to them?
Have you ever wondered how insulting and demeaning that would be for the people who live in this country? And not just the people — the soldiers who have been defending it all these years — their emotions and everything.

And who the hell is Pakistan anyway?
It is a state made by the British, as a result of the failure of our own leaders — mostly due to Gandhi and many others — just to divide India.
So that for the upcoming years, they could apply the divide and rule policy again. And without having any direct control, they could easily stop our development, our cultural growth, and everything.

Pakistan is used by both the USA and China — and Western nations — for their agenda in the East, mostly targeting India, to ensure we don’t get ahead of them.
They know we are capable of many things.
But we don’t look like it — we are dumb people, fighting among ourselves for lowly things, unable to move past our differences even after so many years that have gone by.

It is a failure — as people of this nation — and a failure to hear such words from the youth.
Please, ask China, or Pakistan, or Russia, or Europe, or any nation — to give what was once theirs.
You will be astonished — not just by the government but by the people — who have far stronger opinions and love for their nation.

And here we are, talking about giving Kashmir?

THE KASHMIR.
Bro, I have a dream to visit Kashmir — at least for a month — or possibly to have a home there.

But giving them that would mean total catastrophe for Kashmir. You would never be able to travel there.
There is no proper government in Pak — it is ruled by military forces, in collaboration with ISIS and many other terror organizations they shelter.


If Pakistan gets Kashmir, I would be ashamed to call myself Indian — ever.
And please don’t talk about minorities. We have seen so much of how minorities are treated here.
And Let them friends please know how minorities are treated in Pak,
Please ask them what happened to all the Hindus that were left there , if they are alive or converted to stay alive.
If you wanna compare, compare  on a tip to tip basis 
Point by point. You will see on your own what's real and what's lie.
Everyone has flaws , nothing is perfect.
but this is pointless.
You know, every time someone gets murdered — who is it that commits it?
We’ve had so many inhumane events over the past decade.
So many.
They hide behind the label of "minority."
I don’t know who your friends are, but I can’t tolerate such high opinions of people like that.
I would rather leave them.


PS: Used AI to structure my grammar and thoughts

piratica_seeker

Every conflict or war is a business in today’s cruel world…There are stake holders on both sides benefiting from it….Worldwide….Common man is a collateral damage in the bigger scheme of picture….! Stay safe and focus on your personal growth…Vote Wisely and Choose the right government…!

Interesting_One_2899

Best thing to do in such times is not to have any discussions. You can have some when the tensions suffice. Ultimately, sense will prevail.

AppointmentCritical

If Kashmir goes to Pakistan or not is a decision Kashmiris themselves will make whenever the time comes for plebiscite etc. Until then, nothing will change by force as both nations are nuclear powers. Best not to fall for propaganda from any side.

Always do your own research and look for impartial sources of news. Educating yourself of issues at a deeper level will help ease your mind.

pm_me_your_target

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DeltaBot

India is a largely secular country, you are right there. Things have been getting a bit worse lately, but big picture - India’s been an open and diverse democracy since 1947.

Kashmir is a tricky situation because it not only relates to a border conflict, but also reflects the larger Hindu-Muslim animosity - basically stems from it.

But to address your point about India being in the right, I would say it very much depends on where you are getting your information and how accurate and credible it is. Mainstream media narratives usually associate Muslim-majority countries to terrorism and conflict. So while Pakistan can do a lot more regarding terrorism within the country, it’s usually more complex and deeper than just that. It’s a very poor country and hugely disaster-prone. I don’t think the country has recovered from a massive flood it faced a few years ago. But yesterday it received an IMF. And the pro-Indian side of social media was so quick to link the loan to terrorism, when it’s actually helping people in need. Again, Pakistan can do a lot better.

I think both countries are at fault. At the time of independence from the British, Kashmir was given the choice of joining Pakistan, India or staying independent. The then-king needed time to decide (to essentially hold a referendum) and asked both countries if they could maintain status quo. Pakistan said yes, but India wasn’t very interested. Eventually the people of Pakistan and its army invaded Kashmir, which forced the King to seek help from India and formally join the country. Hasty decisions taken by both sides, but it’s the people ultimately getting affected, always.

Hindu-Muslim frictions go beyond this conflict. While there was always some tension, it was the British Empire that sowed conflict between Hindus and Muslims to prevent a united opposition to its rule. And that grew over years and led to the creation of India and Pakistan (and Bangladesh). Artificial borders drawn by colonisers continue to cause problems for local communities and countries today.

Understanding world politics and conflicts isn’t about taking sides. It’s about viewing actions in context; and each context is different. We have tend to put different and varied types of events or situations around the world into certain categories that we’re not willing to budge from. And these categories influences the way we look at each side. Pakistan supporting terrorism? That’s a narrow view of this. What would be more helpful would be to look at why people in Pakistan are choosing violence, why are they attacking India, why is there hatred. There is always a source to a conflict, it doesn’t happen in a vacuum. The more we pick sides and say who’s right and wrong, the more we move away from that source.

Inner_Operation47

Both countries are in the wrong, Kashmir should be independent and then both India and Pakistan can stop bickering for centuries, it makes no sense and in the end, only the population suffer, die in bombings and live in poverty. With regional stability, you can see investments pouring in and people's lives improving rather than having fanatical wars.

India is actively being shaped as a Hindu nation state. Persecution of Sikhs, Christians, and Muslim minorities is common place. Indian democracy is increasingly representing mob rule with hateful rhetoric being prolific.

If you don’t believe me, have a scroll through mostly English-speaking Indian subs. There’s a massive hardline ethno-nationalist sentiment growing and increasingly shaping Indian politics. This would be a non-issue ethics aside if India wasn’t one of the most ethnically, linguistically and culturally diverse hubs on the planet.

The crux of your argument falls apart when you acknowledge that the people of Kashmir perceive the Indian state as an occupying state. 

AsterKando


To those who are still learning thank you. It’s refreshing to hear people admit they’re seeking understanding rather than shouting from fixed positions. That’s what we need more of.

You’re right: this conflict isn’t just about borders. It’s not just about Kashmir. It’s about how violence is used.And this is where Pakistan’s role becomes impossible to ignore.

India, for all its very real flaws and there are many is a secular democracy on paper and in practice, to a significant extent.
Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Parsis, and others have lived and thrived there for decades. Yes, there is hate speech, misuse of laws like 295A, and rising majoritarian rhetoric. But these are internal battles, and they are fought publicly through courts, protests, media, and elections. That’s democracy, messy as it is. 

Pakistan’s case is different. It has a long-documented history of harboring terror groups as strategic tools, not just against India, but even at the expense of its own stability.

Let’s zoom out. This is bigger than one attack or one airstrike. This is about decades of history, demographics, and hypocrisy: 

Pre-Partition, Kashmir was a princely state ruled by a Hindu king, Maharaja Hari Singh, despite its mixed population. For centuries, the region had a rich Hindu and Buddhist cultural foundation. Over time, Islam became dominant partly through peaceful conversions, but also through political and social pressures. So no, Kashmir was not originally Muslim territory.

At Partition in 1947, the Maharaja chose to accede to India under duress, as armed Pakistani tribal camps had infiltrated Kashmir. That triggered the first India-Pakistan war that India won, and ever since, Pakistan has claimed Kashmir simply because it’s Muslim-majority.

But here’s the contradiction:
If religion alone decides borders, then what about the 15% of Pakistan’s population that was Hindu in 1947? Today, they are less than 2%, wiped out by blasphemy laws, forced conversions, mob violence, and state-backed persecution.

Meanwhile in India:
- Muslims were ~9% of the population in 1947
- Today, they are 14%+ and growing though at a slower rate but that is not because of any special treatment, but because of access to education, healthcare, and urbanization. 
- Yes, India has issues: hate speech, 295A misuse, rising polarization. But Indian Muslims vote, run businesses, represent India internationally, and live under a Constitution that protects their rights.

Now let’s fast forward:
15 days ago, 26 innocent Hindu civilians were killed in Pahalgam, in yet another terror attack targeting Hindu tourists.

India responded with an airstrike.
Not on Pakistani civilians.
Not on the Pakistani military.
But on known terror camps across the border camps that have repeatedly bred extremist violence aimed at Indian civilians and forces.

And now?
Suddenly, Pakistani outlets and some Western media cry “escalation.”

They say:
“There are no terror camps in Pakistan.” Really?
- Osama bin Laden was found hiding in Abbottabad, next to a military base
- LeT and JeM leaders roam freely in Pakistan
- A Jaish-e-Mohammed leader was spotted at the funeral of those allegedly “civilians” killed in the recent strike

So let’s be clear: 
India didn’t strike Pakistan. India struck terrorism.

If anything, Pakistan should be relieved India is dismantling the same extremist networks that Pakistan’s own people fear, but their government won’t touch.

Meanwhile, Pakistan jails its own PM (Imran Khan), silences families like the Bhuttos, and crushes dissent that threatens the army or questions the status quo. 

This isn’t Hindu vs Muslim.
It’s India, a flawed but functioning democracy vs Pakistan, a military-run state using religion and terror as political tools.

India fights its battles in the open: through courts, protests, elections.
Pakistan fights through proxies and denies what the world already knows.

Let’s stop pretending this is a fair comparison. And let’s stop blaming India for defending its citizens while the real enablers of terror hide in plain sight.

Imaginary_Strike4744

Kashmiri people should decide their fate, not the other countries.

Sad_Fill_1149

I have been studying history my whole life. I'm in a masters program now and only a year or so ago did I start to really learn about this sometimes declared and something undeclared war that's been going on for nearly 80 years.

First off, I think it's wrong to only focus on India and Pakistan as it presents only nationality. The reality of this is that the conflict is fundamentally based on religion and culture. This includes Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists and even Atheists.

One thing I wrote in a thesis paper I put together a few semesters ago is that every side of the conflict has been very wrong many times and has been persecuted by other sides of this conflict, especially in pogroms which is a term usually meant for anti-Jewish riots but I am a Jew and I'm telling you, at least for me, it's fine to use the term in relation to violence against others groups.

Pretty much every religious group I mentioned in India and Pakistan has been the victim AND persecutor of a riot/pogrom at one time or another. Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and Buddhists have all been victims of this horrific religious violence while also being perpetrators throughout history.

Yes, I think you are right when it comes to who is right and who is wrong right now between India and Pakistan. Pakistan's government simply refuses to do enough to stop terrorism. One thing I was thinking about earlier today is that Pakistan, to this day, refuses to apologize for their role or even acknowledge the Bangladesh genocide.

I really can't stand when governments like Turkey and Pakistan insist that we all do something about their allegations of genocide against Israel but they can't even acknowledge what their own country did. It's hypocrisy at it's worst.

Let me finish with this: Religious violence is part of the history and present state of affairs for India and Pakistan and right now, I'm very worried that more pogroms could take place against Muslims in India and Hindus in Pakistan.

Some crappy/ rushed ceasefire isn't going to prevent that.

I hope everyone finds a way to stay safe.

Different-Chance-988

“I am not aware of a lot of the details of the India Pakistan conflict and am trying to gain a deeper understanding”

Just stop right there.  Do not decide to then make a big judgement  about a situation you don’t actually know anything about.  “I don’t know anything, but…”. Just don’t.  

Go read some books and get back to us.  

Grace_Alcock

&gt;I think there is a lot of information and evidence online which suggests that Pakistan government supports directly or indirectly the terrorism against India.

ummm. Osama Bin Laden was found chilling literally a stone-throw distance away from the PMA (Pakistan Military Academy), the West Point of Pakistan.

TeriMaaKiLalChudiyan

Answer: To everyone saying that Kashmir is the reason for animosity is incorrect. The contested muslim majority area in Kashmir is small percentage of what you see in the map as Jammu and Kashmir. Even in Kargil district there is sizable population of buddhists and hindus. Even Kashmir valley had a sizable hindu population 80 years ago. It does not make sense to fight 80 years for 30000 sq km area (150 km \* 200 km). It is entirely possible to solve it on the table, it is some 13% of the area that you see in the map of J&amp;K.

As soon as Kashmir becomes part of Pakistan, the military of Pakistan will point their guns on other states like Punjab.  It is just plain animosity with india and Kashmir itself has little to do with the conflict. They were doing militancy and Punjab when they could.  Peace with india means there is no legitimacy for the army rulers of Pakistan, and to Pakistan itself. When Atal Vajapayee started to resolve the conflict, military of Pakistan started an all out war in Kargil and did a coup to remove any chance of a resolution. When Mr Modi went to Pakistan to meet Mr Nawaz Sharif , their army did Pulwama in the next few days.

It is possible that the military rule has some deeper underpinnings. Possibly this situation is inevitable when you have an islamic neighbor. Islam in their head already makes them superior but it does not help that they think they are taller and fairer and should rule the lesser people. The Pakistani army rulers exploit this to the hilt by promising an islamic utopia with india and israel as the enemies preventing it, thus removing the need for showing good governance. The hypocrisy is palpable when they create lunatic taliban on one end and do genocide against bengali muslims on the other end. Inflation is an double digits but Imran Khan can still be thrown into jail by doing terrorist acts against india. This delusional promise of an islamic utopia held together only by creating artificial low intensity wars against Israel and India has caused endless misery not only in india and israel but also in Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan and rest of the middle east. 

The British created Pakistan possibly in full awareness of what was to ensue. They planted incapable rulers when leaving so they could come back and rule india again. That did not happen but we are left in this weird state of affairs.

Disastrous_Crow1447

Your view seems to be based in the preconceptions that "Hindiusm is a nice peaceful religion, Islam is a nasty terrorist religion".

WordsUnthought

I would rest only one case here:

You must have heard pakistani(deliberately in small-caps, as a form of protest) politicians boasting and threatening the usage of nuclear weapons. Recently, they said that, if they feel they are attacked, they won't let any other country survive. Every now and then they try to move their nuclear-related-arsenals to threaten other nations. 

Any sane human knows the extent oof destruction, Nuclear weapons carry out. But, their nationals celebrate this act of their politicians. 

On the other hand, India has a No-First-Use-Policy for its nuclear arsenal.

keechoo_ka_dadaji

I'm not from India, but as far as I know, India also allows a lot of terrorist groups to exist too. Look into Nagaland for example. If business owners don't pay their "share" to the terrorist groups, them and their families will not be safe. And the Indian government is not doing anything about it.

eric39es

I see most of the comments have accused india of neglecting muslim minority population and stating it as a reason why everything is happening over there. 


So, While Pakistan lectures India on minority rights, it's ironic that Hindus, who made up 12-23% of its population pre-partition, now comprise less than 2%. 


India's Constitution guarantees freedom of religion and has initiatives to promote minority welfare, making it a beacon of tolerance and inclusivity in the region.


India's Muslim population has been growing steadily. According to the 2011 census, Muslims make up around 14.2% of the population, which translates to approximately 172.2 million people. 


This growth rate is higher than that of Hindus, with Muslims growing at 24.6% between 2001 and 2011, compared to 16.8% for Hindus during the same period.


It's to be noted that India has the third-largest Muslim population globally, with the majority being Sunni Muslims. The growth rate and projections depend on various factors like birth rates, migration patterns, and government policies.


So you can take a guess who is supressing whom. And whats with the illiterate mindset of these people driven by their masters [ terrorist group leaders, millitary head ] harboring unnecessary hate

Zestyclose-Visual927

First off, there's been quite a few conflicts between India and Pakistan since 1947, so it's quite a big claim you're making. The political context in and between the two countries has changed over the years. I'm just going to focus on more recent stuff since that seems to be what you're actually focused on. 

You base your claim in part on seeing India as secular and reasonable compared to Pakistan. Whilst it's true, the government in Pakistan is not very democratic I wouldn't be quick to praise India's current government in that department either. The Indian Prime Minister Modi's politics are based on a particularly nasty brand of Hindu nationalism.

Before he was Prime Minister, Modi was in charge of a province called Gujurat and was widely seen to be complicit in the 2002 riots where 2,000 muslims were massacred. Since then, his time in power has involved authoritarian crackdowns on political opponents, journalists, academics, and minorities (especially Muslims). His party, the BJP also has a far-right paramilitary wing called the RSS. Modi has consistently undermined democratic and secular institutions in India in favour of Hindu supermacist policies. 

Finally, even before Modi India has occupied much of Kashmir against the wishes of the majority of the population. Kahmiris face extreme violence from India's military occupation. Arbitrary detention, extrajudicial killings, torture and bans on freedom of expression are common. Violence by Kashmiri insurgents has to be understood in a context of decades of brutal occupation by India. Pakistan certainly exploits that situation for its own interests. But before buying into Indian justifications of war as a response to terrorism its worth bearing in mind how India has terrorised civilians in Kashmir for decades. Ending the occupation and giving Kashmiris a fair referendum would be a much more effective way to fight terrorism than starting a war with Pakistan that risks nuclear escalation.

Strange_Rice

I don’t believe this is an actual changemyview post since you’ve admitted to disliking Pakistan making your bias pretty apparent. Anyhow here’s my attempt:
India might have been a decent secular country in the past but that is no longer the case. Th BJP runs on the RSS ideology which is an extreme right wing hindu nationalist ideology believing in Hindu superiority. Modi who was the chief minister of Gujarat allowed the 2002 riots which saw 2000+ Muslims killed and earned him the title of the Butcher of Gujarat. So much so that he was banned from many western countries until he became the Prime Minister (including US and UK) with some countries even cutting off diplomatic ties with the state of Gujarat. Imagine the same person now leading the country
You should also look up the ‘Akhand Bharat’ which is an idea that majority of South Asia (including Pakistan, Afghanistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, Myanmar and Tibet) should all be one unified India. This idea has become very popular in the text years and directly fuels the RSS ideology of Hindu superiority
Secondly, India has constantly blamed Pakistan for cross border terrorism but failed to provide any proofs. Even after the Pahalgam incident, Pakistan called for an impartial third party investigation which India refused and kept blaming Pakistan. So much so Indian state asked for local help with their investigation and provide information AFTER it attacked Pakistan. This shows they didn’t have any proof and hence were the escalators. You can not accuse someone, attack them and then start gathering proof to support your accusations (no proof has been put forward yet)
On the other hand, India is no saint. In 2023 Justin Trudeau accused India of violating its sovereignty by assassinating a Sikh separatist leader in Canada. But if we keep it just India and Pakistan, India directly supported and according to some reports trained the Mukti Bahini (1971 war and creation of Bangladesh which used to be East Pakistan) but more recently in 2016 Pakistan arrested a serving RAW agent in their state of Baluchistan (look up Kulbushan Jhadav). India initially denied any association with him (despite Pakistan releasing his video confession) but when he was sentenced to death India appealed to the ICJ and had the execution stayed
Also let’s not forget Pakistan itself has been severely affected by terrorism in the last 2 decades where they have blamed India for supporting the terror groups while so far it has been mostly blame game by both sides, Pakistan has atleast on paper provided more proof than India and never escalated it in the sense India has
I’m not a believer of conspiracy theories but I find it very convenient that all recent India Pakistan conflicts have aligned well with Indian elections (key states or general)
2001 attack on parliament - 6 months before 7 state elections (with mostly being key states)
2008 Mumbai attacks - before the 2009 general elections
2016 URI attack - 5 state elections (with mostly being key states
(India claimed to have responded by doing surgical strikes in Pakistan but it was debunked by international media)
2019 pulwama attack - before the general elections
(India attacked Pakistan both attacked each other with India being the first one to attack and also the only one to suffer casualties. They lost 1 jet to Pakistan and 1 helicopter shot by Indian friendly fire)
2025 Pulwama attacks - 8 Rajya Sabha seats up for election and 1 key state 
(Both countries attacked each other with India being the first one again. International media has confirmed 3 Indian jets shot down by Pakistan including a Rafale. Pakistan claims 5 shot down including 3 Rafales)
All these conflicts, India accused Pakistan but has failed to provide any proof. On the other hand the list of terrorist attacks on Pakistan is much longer but luckily those have not turned into India-Pakistan conflicts
If per your point, India is actually right, they should 1) address Pakistani of supporting terror in Pakistan and 2) provide proofs of Pakistan supporting terror in India

I also saw your replies to multiple people on secularism claiming the Hindu population in modern day Pakistan fell by more than 85% since 1941. This is a very flawed argument in my opinion because 6 years after the census, in the 1947 partition there were mass migrations meaning non Muslims that were now in Pakistan moves to India and Muslims now in India moved to Pakistan. So at the very least any comparisons you want to do should be with the 1950s censuses that happened after the partition and migrations

Lastly, having both Indian and Pakistani friends, one thing I can tell you that they all get along mostly pretty well and nobody hates the other. That being said I have still noticed general Indians to have more strongly negative feelings about Pakistan and Pakistani people
But to address that concern of yours all I have to say is that the world is not what you see in movies and state run media and state run propaganda. Please do your research with an unbiased and open mind and verify everything with independent and impartial media/organizations

Realistic-Tap8474

Your view is extremely Islamophobic. 

You're sort of characterization of India as a secular liberal democracy is more true on paper than in practice, India has long been and is especially now under Modi and Hindu supremecist state that is extremely unequal and unfair to non Hindus in the subcontinent (usually within Indias borders, but not limited to). Pakistan is also on paper a secular government, I beleive some for of democracy, but it is a majority Muslim nation and certainly the political parties of Pakistan are heavily Muslim.

The truth is the Indian sub continent is extremely diverse and the 2 largest religious groups are Hindus and Muslims. India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh all used to be the British colony of India and the various Indian and Muslim kingdoms before it. Indian Muslims and Hindus have don't multiple genocides agaisnt each other historically (and certainly both have done genocides agaisnt each other in the memory of living indians and Pakistanis today). There isn't really a good side or a bad side here, it's a big mess.

All of that said, what's happening India is much the same as isreal and certainly the way the west, and America especially perceives of it. Simply put the west is currently about as Islamophobic as europe was anti Semitic in the late 1800s to early 1900s. The reality of the situation is americans and Europeans are just waiting for a reason to go take the lives of Muslims they just fuckin hate. Yes Muslim majority countries are designated state sponsors of terror and yes they do infact fund, coordinate, and execute violent acts. But the thing is every country does this, like as Americans we have the CIA which is i guess NOT a terrorist organization because the violent and disruptive acts they do on a regular basis around the world are geopolitical beneficial to us? Like ostensibly terrorism refers to "actions meant to coerce people through the use of fear and violence" but in practice it's an extremely vague term that mainly seems to refer to the geopolitical adversaries of the west.

Like if you really want to get into this, the country of interest is Iran which is a revolutionary Islamic republic. Why revolutionary? Because they had to over throw their king. What king? The shah that the brits and Americans installed in their country that ran the country into the group to be a colonial client state of American and great Brittany for cheap oil. Of course they over threw the shit government we forced upon them and of course they are mad at use for doind that to them. Well since the revolution we've been cool to them right? No, we have economically abused them with sanctions and the IMF keeping them in permanent economic depression for HALF A CENTURY? I'm not saying it's justified for them to fund bombers and stuff, but I'm just saying it's understand why they're doing it. We are not being completely honest establish about the abuse we have been leveling agaisnt them for almost a century now and their means of resisting it is only ever framed as them being like violent psychotic religious fanatics. Similar but different for all the other Muslim majority middle eastern nations except Saudi Arabia, who are basically the Muslim sell outs.

Heres the thing about racism and terrorism (and yes Islamophobia is racism. No Muslims aren't a race, but the specific anti Muslim bias and treatment to a T matches racism): do you think European jews didn't comitt acts of terrorism amidst the pogroms and abuse in Europe?  Like you know jews picked up this reputation for being communists because... communist parties in Europe were some of the only political organizations that jews could join or made it a specific part of the policy agenda to treat jews and equals? Like when you talk about stuff like the Warsaw ghetto uprising, you know everyone called them terrprists right? In america, if you asked the KKK in the Jim crow era they would say they never lynched an innocent person, that they always felt like they were killing rapists and theives. Like basically the way you talk about Pakistan as like a country full of these violent religious extremist psychopaths and terrorists, you know their country is not primarily kept down because of their religious fundamentalist culture right? It's stuff like the IMF the prevents their economy from ever developing, they can't afford schools and services and stuff because they have no economy. They have mud brick houses and mosques and see a world leaving them in the dust on purpose and there's nothing they can do, of course it's gonna drive them crazy and of course they're going to try and violently resist.

This thing in India and Pakistan looks identical to October 7th in isreal. You definitely have an initial terrorist attack from the Muslim side (though it must be stated that the territory has been disputed for a long time prior to this attack). The terrorist attack kills not an insignificant number of people, October 7th in isreal has some 2000-3000 catives/ casualties, in kashmir you have 24 Hindus killed. But then you have this MASSIVE response to the attack that kills way more Muslims than the original terrorist attack. And I know you can get all justice porn about it with the tough guy shit, but at the end of the day Muslim lives just don't count as much as kon Muslim lives do they? You can just kill 10, 100, 1000 Muslims for ever 1 non muslim killed by a muslim can't you? You definitely don't have to take seriously their side in the territorial disputes, you definitely don't have to take seriously their economic oppression or anything do you? Really Muslim terrorist attacks are what Islamophobes want because they can use it as vice for doing the thing they actually want to do, which is just kill more muslims and take more of their land. They don't ever get to live decent lives or have land that's theres. They are always suspicious and it's always OK to just kill them in the 1000s and when they try and fight back that's just mkre proof that they are psychopathic religious fanatics and terrorists isn't it?

ChikenCherryCola

It doesn’t really matter. There are no circumstances in which Pakistani is the good guy and the better option for „the West.“ 

India is the most populous country on Earth, a democracy, well integrated in the global community, and a huge potential market for both talent and consumer goods. 

Pakistan is an Islamist regime walking a tight rope just to maintain control of the country. They’re as extreme and supportive of extremism as Saudia Arabia and Iran. 

It’s not a hard choice.

TeamSpatzi

Stop Rewarding Pakistan’s Bad Behavior

Imagine living in a world where your family is subjected to violence every few years—where the trauma of terrorist attacks becomes generational. Now imagine someone asking you to reward the source of that trauma for "good behavior." That is exactly what certain policymakers and commentators continue to suggest when they advocate for increased aid, diplomatic engagement, or concessions toward Pakistan. This approach is not just naïve—it is dangerously tone-deaf.

India has bent over backward for decades to build bridges with Pakistan. From the 1991 confidence-building measures to Prime Minister Modi’s surprise visit to Lahore in 2015, India has shown extraordinary restraint and goodwill. Ceasefires, bus services across the Line of Control (LoC), trade talks, and liberalized visa regimes—India has pursued every diplomatic avenue, even after repeated provocations.

And what has Pakistan given in return?

A blood-soaked record of terror.

From the 1993 Bombay bombings to the 2001 attack on the Indian Parliament, from the horrific siege of Mumbai in 2008 to the suicide bombing in Pulwama in 2019, Pakistan-based terrorist organizations—often with the implicit or explicit support of the Pakistani state and its Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI)—have waged an unrelenting campaign of violence against India. Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Hizbul Mujahideen—these are not fringe actors. They are instruments of Pakistan’s long-standing policy of bleeding India by a thousand cuts.

Let’s be clear: this is not about people-to-people relations. It is about a state that has consistently harbored, trained, and exported terrorism while presenting a moderate face to the international community. When a nation’s founding ideology proclaims that Hindus and Muslims cannot coexist, and its strategic doctrine relies on asymmetrical warfare and nuclear blackmail, trusting it to act in good faith is not diplomacy—it’s delusion.

So why do some voices still argue for appeasement? Why are we still treating Pakistan as a misunderstood neighbor instead of the repeat offender it is?

If your best idea is to offer more aid or diplomatic overtures to a regime that has used every olive branch as cover for its next ambush, you are not seeking peace—you are enabling the cycle of violence. As the saying goes: “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” Let’s stop pretending that failed strategies will suddenly yield different outcomes.

It’s time for responsible action:

Classify Pakistan as a state of concern, much like Iran or North Korea. Its record on terrorism, nuclear proliferation, and regional destabilization demands it.

End all arms sales and military support, including the $400 million F-16 maintenance package. There is no justification for strengthening a military that shields terror proxies.

Push for FATF blacklisting, as Pakistan continues to fall short on shutting down terror financing despite international pressure.

The facts are clear. The timeline is damning. And the moral imperative is obvious. Pakistan’s actions have made it abundantly clear that it is not a partner for peace. India—and the international community—must stop rewarding bad behavior with false hope and failed diplomacy.

Because peace is not possible without accountability. And justice delayed is not just denied—it is detonated, bus by bus, market by market, soldier by soldier.

Certain-Day6648

There is substantial evidence indicating that elements within Pakistan’s military and intelligence services have supported terrorist organizations, particularly those operating against India and Afghanistan. This support has been documented through various incidents, investigations, and international reports. ￼

⸻

1.	⁠2025 Pahalgam Attack

In April 2025, a terrorist attack in Pahalgam, Indian-administered Kashmir, resulted in the deaths of 26 civilians. Investigations by India’s National Investigation Agency (NIA) linked the attack to Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) operatives, with digital footprints tracing back to safe houses in Muzaffarabad and Karachi, Pakistan. One of the attackers, Hashim Moosa, was identified as a former Pakistani Special Forces commando, suggesting direct involvement of Pakistani military personnel in orchestrating the attack . ￼ ￼

⸻

2. 2008 Mumbai Attacks

The 2008 Mumbai attacks, which claimed 166 lives, were executed by LeT operatives trained in Pakistan. Investigations revealed that the attackers received support from Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), with evidence including training manuals, maps, and communication intercepts. Notably, an ISI officer known as Major Iqbal was implicated in funding and directing aspects of the operation . ￼ ￼

⸻

3. ISI’s Links to Terrorist Groups

The ISI has been accused of maintaining relationships with various terrorist organizations, including the Haqqani Network and Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM). These groups have been used to further Pakistan’s strategic interests in the region, particularly in Afghanistan and Kashmir. Reports indicate that the ISI has provided training, funding, and safe havens to these groups . ￼

⸻

4. State-Sponsored Terrorism Designations

Pakistan’s involvement in supporting terrorist activities has led to international scrutiny. The Financial Action Task Force (FATF) placed Pakistan on its “grey list” from 2018 to 2022 due to deficiencies in countering terrorist financing. Additionally, the U.S. State Department has consistently highlighted Pakistan’s role in harboring terrorist groups in its Country Reports on Terrorism . ￼ ￼ ￼

⸻

5. Recent Diplomatic Evidence

In May 2025, during heightened tensions between India and Pakistan, the Indian envoy presented photographic evidence purportedly showing Pakistani military personnel alongside known terrorists. This was cited as proof of Pakistan’s continued support for terrorist activities against India . ￼

⸻

These instances underscore a pattern of support by elements within Pakistan’s military and intelligence services for terrorist groups operating in the region. While Pakistan officially denies such involvement, the accumulation of evidence from various sources suggests a complex relationship between the state and these non-state actors.

https://www.fatf-gafi.org/en/countries/pakistan.html

https://www.state.gov/reports/country-reports-on-terrorism-2022/pakistan/

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/india-pakistan-live-look-whos-behind-him-indian-envoys-photo-proof-of-pak-sponsored-terror-8368696

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/why-pakistan-supports-terrorist-groups-and-why-the-us-finds-it-so-hard-to-induce-change/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Weekly-Fortune2611

India funds terrorists in Balochistan who murder anyone who isn't Baloch and there's evidence they've also had a hand in funding the Pakistani Taliban.  


This most recent war should've never happened and was just Modi wanting to throw a bone to his extremist supporters who want a war with Pakistan because most of them haven't actually lived through a war or fought in a war.  There was zero evidence Pakistan was behind Pahalgam, and the blame came out immediately.  The reason the blame came out immediately and tensions started was also a way for Modi to cover his ass because of how badly the state failed in protecting it's citizens and capturing or killing the perpetrators of the attack.  The attack reportedly went on for around an hour and no one came to stop it.  Had this happened in a country that wasn't a third world kleptocracy the people in charge of security of that area would've been fired immediately and possibly brought up on charges.  I would bet my entire life savings the person in charge of security in Pahalgam has friends in high places, and the way the third world works is that governments will make the average citizen fall on their swords for the sake of someone's career if that person is a faithful loyalist.  And this is exactly what happened.


India was completely and is still completely in the wrong here.  The insurgency in Kashmir is mostly homegrown because of the state's actions towards Kashmiris.  It's impossible to cross the line of control too, militants get killed all the time trying to cross it on either side.  I've been to the line of control and there are pillboxes everywhere and there isn't an inch of it unprotected so if someone from Pakistan supposedly got in, it's entirely the fault of whoever is in charge of the sector for being an incompetent leader.  


TLDR: there's no evidence Pakistan had anything to do with Pahalgam, and it has absolutely nothing to gain by pissing off India.  The Indian response was the Indian government's attempt to cover up it's own security failures and incompetence.


Also India invaded Pakistan in East Pakistan only to get a pro indian government in.  Pakistan was fighting an insurgency of Bengali nationalists there who were slaughtering minorities living within East Bengal.  My wife's parents literally survived this just barely.  Had the massacres of Biharis never happened Operation Searchlight would've never happened.  Operation Searchlight was fully justified and a security action of a state on it's own soil.  India had no business interfering.


Also India uses the excuse of "the Maharajah of Kashmir joined us" meanwhile two Princely States tried joining Pakistan and India invaded them and annexed them.  It's a little hypocritical to claim Kashmir when the majority didn't support joining India but because they had a Hindu ruler India used that as an argument for invasion.

TerryMakichoott

Replace India with US and Pakistan with Mexico and imagine the US starts shooting missiles into Mexico to stop drug cartels which are linked with factions of the Mexican government. 


I get the anger from India but the truth is it was an massive escalation in the conflict for a terrorist attack that cant actually be linked to Pakistan government. 


Also I don't want to excuse Pakistan for institutional failure but its similar to Mexico in that its about corruption and incompetence instead of then actively using these groups to attack India. 

Rich-Instruction-327

Not pro Pakistan at all - but I think you should really consider what a country being "in the right" means.

People like to project interpersonal conflicts onto countries, where the crux of the issue would be resolved if one person just changed their mind. 

Now, people know this isn't realistic, that's not how international conflicts ever end. So the way we're tempted to model things is to pull back the metaphor of "organizational personhood" and give it out to whatever 'side' seems best. With personhood comes consistency, reasonableness, moral reflection - everything that makes someone responsible enough for personal rights and not just human rights.

Everything else is left as a complex circumstance. The organization-person can probably handle if relieved of the pressure making things a "conflict". Some judge just needs to make a ruling and finally settle the issue, right?


So, who do we support in getting full stakeholder rights? India... keeping in mind that means the current Indian government? "The people of Kashmir"... whatever form that takes - ignoring how that makes it *easier* for both governments to directly pressure the people there?


I'm not saying "both sides" are "equally right", I'm saying that you cannot make someone "right" or "wrong" without defining who they are much more precisely than you think, and thus excluding anyone who isn't consolidated on the most massive scale.

There are Indian voices for a much more lasting peace than I'd trust the Modi government to plan, that's easy to believe - but can you picture the same being true for Pakistan?


Regardless of how much anyone in this Pakistani government was actively involved, the fact is that no lasting organisation experiences itself as "having caused or enabled the killing of civilians". They experience themselves as "having failed to stop it", and there's always more understandable explanations than you think. They can just never be good enough.

Whether it's the fault of a previous government, inadequate target ID, aberrant actors, or divergence from policy... Even literal Taliban leaders have, on multiple occasions, claimed strikes, belatedly learned that a bunch of civilians were murdered, then fucking un-claimed them.


Defining two sides to a conflict, one of which is overall "in the right" or "in the wrong" will not help you answer the questions that de-escalate a conflict. Are you ready to escalate it? Then you can decide that Pakistan means "the Pakistani government", India means "the Indian government", and one of them is, overall, in the right.

panopticoneyes

I think a bit of geology is in order here.

The Indus river to Pakistan is as important if not even more important as the Nile to Egypt. Most farm lands in Pakistan, a country that needs to feed over 200mil people, are in fact semi-deserts that are only made possible to plant crops by irrigation from the flow of this singular river.

There is only a slight problem: most of the water flow that supplies the Indus river are coming from major upstreams (4 major ones) which are all located inside India (either in uncontested terrirtory or in the Indian-controlled Kashimir region). And India has built over 50 dams along these upstreams. By the Indus Water Treaty (IWT), India is legally bound to not construct water storage, reservoir and/or cannal systems that could give it the capability to cut off the critical water supply into Pakistan in significant numbers.

One of the first actions that India took since this most recent conflict, is to suspend the IWT, making threats on water flow to Pakistan that comprises something like 90% of that country's supply of fresh water. This action has no military value whatsoever, it's only aimed at hurting the civilians. It violates international law and bilateral treaties, and is above all morally reprehensible.

Edit: I called the suspension of IWT "state-sponsored terrorism" on India part in the original comment. I was reminded in the comments that due to the treaty's existence, India does not have the physical facilities to actually stop the water flow to Pakistan in meaningful ways in the near term.

Unlikely-Turnover744

Explore Indian and Pakistani social media spaces on Twitter, Reddit, and YouTube. Trawl the comment sections.

You will find out the reality of both countries.

Pakistan does not support terrorism. US used Pakistan in the 1980s to fight the USSR in Afghanistan using asymmetric warfare. It used the idea of holy war (jihad) to indoctrinate young men to go fight the war in Afghanistan against the Soviets by convincing them that it was their religious duty.

They did this because they had a problem similar to what Ukraine faces against Russia currently -- that there aren't enough bodies to throw at the enemy. Afghanistan was a country with a relatively small population. This is how they got young men to go die for US foreign policy in Afghanistan.

The trouble is that once you let the genie out of the bottle, it's not easy to put it back in. Once you put an idea (i.e., religious obligation to fight the invader) in a society, it is very difficult to eradicate it.

This is why so many Western govts are reluctant to allow their young men to go fight in Ukraine, even though they initially flirted with the idea.

It was an insane thing to do but the CIA did it anyway.

NB: That's who Osama bin Laden was, originally. He was the CIA's guy who served as liaison.

Pakistan helped by being a conduit for money, arms and the venue for training.

There is plenty of poverty and ill-educated kids in Pakistan. The US funded seminaries where poor families could send their sons. There, they would be clothed, fed, and educated completely free of charge, except the education was religious and a proportion of these young kids were sent off to go fight in Afghanistan.

After the Soviet-Afghan War was over, US left and left the mess behind. This mess metastasized over time in various guises, till Pakistan eventually crushed it at the cost of 80,000 Pakistanis and USD 120 billion.

India, meanwhile, has fomented terror in Pakistan for decades. They have spent a lot of money funding violence in Karachi (Pakistan's biggest city home to some 25 million to 30 million people) and in Baluchistan.

Pakistan has a serving Indian Navy officer called Kalbhushen Yadav in custody who was caught carrying out terrorist activities in Pakistan.

Pakistan has learnt hard lessons that the West still hasn't learnt, and it's pretty rich of Western people to accuse Pakistan of something that they themselves caused. I accuse all Western countries here because in the final analysis, no Western country has its own independent foreign policy. They all follow US in this matter.

A1700AW

Answer: A nation is more than the people who inhabit it; it is also the stories that knit those people together.

India’s narrative draws on the epics — the *Rāmāyaṇa* and *Mahābhārata* — but also on the modern struggle for independence and a constitutional promise of pluralism. Pakistan’s narrative, shaped by the Two-Nation Theory, emphasizes the conviction that Muslims formed a distinct political community whose rights could not be safeguarded within a Hindu-majority India. Over time, that founding idea has sometimes hardened into an identity defined *against* India, reinforced by school curricula and a security establishment that views perpetual rivalry as strategic necessity.

To see how such “origin stories” can institutionalize hostility, imagine a counter-factual United States in which ten southern states secede under the banner of “The Confederacy of the Pure.” Their textbooks portray northerners as morally corrupt; pastors and civic leaders preach that the South’s deeper Christian faith entitles it to rule the entire Union; militias arise, cloaked in religious justification, to terrorize northern civilians. Now add a super-power patron that funnels weapons and aid because it sees advantage in a divided America. The result would mirror many of the structural dynamics India faces with Pakistan: grievance-based identity, militarized nationalism, and external sponsorship that prolongs conflict.

Important differences remain. Cold-War geopolitics and China’s border disputes, not an intrinsic Islamic mandate, have driven much of Pakistan’s foreign patronage. Christianity and Islam themselves are not determinative; socio-economic conditions, institutions, and great-power incentives matter more. Still, the analogy underscores the central point: when a state’s founding myth locates its raison d’être in resisting a neighboring “other,” reconciliation becomes exceedingly hard without reshaping that narrative from within.

so on 22nd April 2025 an incident took place where some terrorists killed 26 HINDU MENS( there were asked about their religion and was said to recite Kamla if they couldn't they were shot in the head). then a Pakistan based  jihadi militant group \*Lashkar-e-Taiba\* indirectly took the fault about this incident and this was later taken down. this is what resulted India attacking 9 located  terrorist organisations in Pakistan (Pakistan claims them to be civilians not true cause legit some most wanted terrorist came to PAY respect for the deads ). Pakistan is a chaotic state where army doesn't listen to its own gov and these terrorist group doesn't listen to the army either which casue all the dirt surrounding its name . Pakistan always ends up sheltering terrorist and deny of their presence isn't new the word has seen it and this time the govt wanted to make the  bold and clear statement that they will not tolerate these terrorist activities and Pakistan couldn't ever control these terrorist group of India gov took things on their hands hence they identified 9 diff terrorist sites and destroyed them

about the Kashmir being a disputed area has been mistranslated by western media . after independence Kashmir couldn't decide whom they would side after partition the king thought it would be better to join and hence made a pact to let J&amp;K to get some special treatment {work as an independent state} . after partition Pakistan occupied some part of Kashmir and pok {Pakistan occupied Kashmir}was formed. even if the Kashmir issue is resolved Pakistan will always have a problem surrounding India cause Pakistan will carry the inferior complexity with them

Strict-Lab-605

For me, while Pakistan's active support for terrorism is abhorrent, one must always look at the historical background. The princely state of Jammu and Kashmir was and still is majority Muslim and was thus supposed to join Pakistan, as per the partition agreement. However, this was complicated by the fact that the ruler, Hari Singh, was Hindu. While at first he dithered and maintained independence, he opted to accede to India after Pakistani militias invaded in an attempt to force the issue. As a result India occupied most of the princely state. When the UN got involved they made the recommendation that a referendum be held, a referendum that would almost certainly have resulted in Kashmir joining Pakistan. India initially agreed, but the referendum never took place as subsequent Indian governments elected to maintain control of the territory. An important caveat is that the holding of a plebiscite was conditioned on both sides withdrawing their militaries from the region, which neither did. India used this as an excuse to simply never hold the referendum and keep Kashmir under it's control. However, the fact that Kashmir was never supposed to be part of India, based on the Muslim population's overwhelming majority is undeniable.

And yes, Pakistan's use of terrorist groups in Kashmir is criminal, but India's treatment of Kashmir is not all peaches and roses either, as New Delhi has engaged in various attempts to suppress the Muslim majority, trying to redraw the demographic makeup of the territory, whilst also withdrawing the special autonomy that the area enjoyed up until 2019.

  
TL;DR: It's complicated.

Martoto_94

Chemical-Plankton420

Pakistan shouldn't exist at all. The conversation should start with the justification for Pakistan first before assessing India's reactions.

Pakistan was created on the basis of a fear of being a minority in a Hindu India. There was no actual systematic oppression of Muslims by Hindus in India until that point though. I'm really quite shocked as to how this argument is just bought in most circles.

A country cannot be violently partitioned on the basis of fear alone. There are many minorities in many communities who have actually faced persecution (e.g. African Americans in White America). What about the minorities in Europe? In China? Why don't they get separate countries?

African Americans made many calls for a separate country. Those factions (Malcolm X types) were quickly dismissed as radicals and they only got Liberia. The US has 0 moral standing in this discussion, yet they step in and claim arbitration. Can Muslims do call to prayer in America? Is Eid a national holiday in America? Do Muslims in America implement things like Triple Talaq (banned even in Muslims countries but not in India for the longest time).

So I would say before even looking at post partition actions by both countries, look at the justification for Pakistan. Look at the fact that the light skinned, monotheists from the North want their own segregated right wing Islamist state. They violently broke away from the rest of the country to achieve this unjust goal.

Despite India's failures in handling the conflict, Pakistan has no real moral standing here. They know this. That's why their primary raison d'etre is India hatred. They can't survive without it because they were founded on the basis of an unjustifiable negative reaction towards India. Whether or not India is secular is irrelevant. Time to move away from the Western mainstream narrative that places Democracy above all else.

Thin_Kangaroo5263

Context is fine, and historical context is important. But there is far too much emphasis placed on it these days. Individual actions are choices made by people in that time and place, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that this is right or wrong, depending on the action. 

Is Kashmir a complicated issue? Sure, doesn't excuse the killing of civilians. Does India have its share of the blame? Sure, doesn't excuse the cross border terrorism and attacks of civilians. Does the Indian government use Kashmir as political capital? Sure, but that is how democracy works, every party of every country, uses a seige mentality and tragedy as political capital. 

Just saying something is "complicated" doesn't absolve people of their actions in the present. Does absolve Al Qaeda of 9/11, doesn't absolve LeT of their terrorism, doesn't excuse the Hamas attacks. If you play the game of assymetric warfare, you're gonna to be killed by a state actor. Statistically, that is probably 90% how you're going to be killed. 

You cannot challenge the monopoly of violence a state has over its people, and expect to get anything other than a bullet to the face. This is not because "it's complicated" it's because that is the crux and the social contract of a social/governmental order.

THeWizardOfOde

Keep in mind that ‘terrorism’ is a definition created by whoever is in power to mean ‘acts against the interests of those in power’, it has become meaningless as a term to describe actual terrorism

So accusations of pakistani aggression towards india being called terrorism when indian aggression towards pakistan is put down as ‘military intervention’ or ‘necessary correction’ or maintaining national defence’ when they are basically doing the same thing to each other, is literally just a marketing tool to make people think one side is more right than the other

Robin hood would have been called a terrorist. The rebels in star wars would have been called terrorists. George washington and the revolutionary army were terrorists. The black panthers were. Anti-slavery rebellions were terrorists. Native americans were. Terrorism in today’s world just means ‘inferior armed forces trying to gain some goal over the government’

I’m from the UK where pakistanis and indians live in large numbers so i’ve known plenty of people of both nationalities in school and into my adult life. Both countries hate each other. Both countries want the other to not exist if possible. Neither country can actually do anything about it

India is definitely not in the right in almost 100% of the violence it inflicts on pakistan, directly or indirectly (indirectly for example both withholding the water supply upriver as they’ve done in 2025 and poisoning their water supply as they were accused of a few years ago, or urging other nations and charities not to give aid to pakistan). Pakistan is also not in the right

It is two sides who are incredibly racist and religiously intolerant towards each other, so neither of them are doing the ‘right’ thing. And yes, to us they are all south asians but to them, there is a racial distinction. They can tell their home nationalities on sight. India is certainly not greatly in the right just because they have more religions in their country, or because they have labelled pakistanis terrorists and haven’t labelled themselves terrorists 

I hope this makes sense

LifeofTino

You shouldn’t really be talking about any of this until you read about Indian Partition, a topic rarely discussed in the west

Live-Profession8822

Only one post per 24 hours on this topic is allowed on this sub. Be civil and keep in mind of the following rules before participating here to avoid a permanent ban -


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rumi_shinigami

I seriously think operation sindoor had to be done, because if we didn’t retaliate they would’ve have done it again worse and sooner 

I think Pakistan won’t let this go easily and we might go for a full blown war. All the intercepted missiles were targeted at civilian areas and it is scary to think that even if one would have hit the target we would have had full blown war.

Another thing is international narrative is bad against us, we might have better economy than Pakistan but we are not self sufficient in a lot of things ( specifically manufacturing)

I really hope full blown war doesn’t happen but if it does I am ready to serve India in whatever capacity I physically can.

batteryghost

I think Pakistan wanted to escalate but wasn’t aware of it’s defensive incapabilities or probably they underestimated India. They thought just sponsoring the Pahalgam attack would not be retaliated by India etc. However, since India just went beast and destroyed their airbases and brought Pakistan to it’s knees, they realised they couldn’t defend themselves much longer and hence begged for a ceasefire by pulling in the US Govt.
I also think that India probably hit very close to their nuke stores and that made them shit their pants. It also caused panic for the US since they always want Pak to be equipped with nukes to counter India. And destruction of their nuke facilities just means starting over with equipping Pak with new facilities.
I agree our media covered this in a shitty way and we also lacked international coverage due to very few interviews, I think that could have been improved. None of our celebrities, so called influencers showed spine and leveraged their audience.

galactic-war

I wanted to  discuss this for long time . I think we did the right thing  by agreeing to cease fire , war and conflict is bad for our economy , our aim was to destroy terror bases and we did that successful 


China is definitely in it , like indirectly they were encouraging pakistan . I don’t know why usa involved , maybe because of china . 

I think modi government did fine , like  i was even more happy with our country unity , all parties and people joined together .  I think we taught pakistan lesson because some of them are  so delusional in think indian muslims wants to join their country and india will break 

Pakistan is constant headache for us , they will continue to trouble india even if we don’t attack their terror bases . They have embrassed themselves in news and in this conflict 

We need to develop our economy and improve our country especially in women safety , education and infrastructure . Economy is the only answer . 


Our celebs need to better , some of the bigger names didn’t even open their mouth but will act in patriotic movies .  Atleast put  some message for armed forces and  support the country . 

I have mixed feeling about pakistan people , like i feel bad for some people but they should acknowledge the problems in their country 

Media definitely needs to better , it was cringe and irritating to watch them . We all switched to DD news like 90s .

Extra-Platypus3720

“What could be the reason USA got involved?”
Girl, the US has been playing both India and Pakistan since time immemorial. There is nothing new about this. Go back to Bush Jr’s presidency and see America’s attitude towards south-east Asia. Nothing has changed. 

There is no concrete evidence of China being a “mastermind” but it is important to note that wars bring financial instability. If India were engaged in an active war, it would greatly benefit its competitors: China. China has also been an ally to Pakistan for a very long time. Let us please not speculate but be objective! Read the press briefings by their foreign ministry. 

Imo, instead of focussing on what could be and what could have been, we need to monitor our diplomacy with other countries, especially our neighbours. Currently, none of our neighbours like us. Sri Lanka may not be an outright hater but they have been getting assistance from China to build their infrastructure. 

If a war between China and us were to break out, we’d be completely decimated. We simply don’t have the financial means. Our tax money lines the pockets of the top 1%. The news will also periodically report the breaching of our boundaries by China. But administration will stay mum on it. Ffs the man has still not held an actual press conference. How are we okay with that?!

Politicians have had almost 80 years to solve our Kashmir problem. None of them have done jack shit because the conflict helps them get the votes. Why does Pakistan constantly live rent-free in our heads, when we should be looking at glaring failures of our information agencies. Yeah like no shit parts of Pakistan are hellscapes. But how the hell do they have more allies than us?! What does that say about the state of our administration? Why is it so easy for armed terrorists to carry out a shootout in a heavy tourist spot? Aren’t people who visit Kashmir constantly observing armed patrols everywhere? These are the questions we need to be asking ourselves. 

Lastly, regarding our defence forces. The same people cheering on our army personnel never said a word when something as preposterous as the Agneepath scheme was introduced. We don’t care about our army. We perhaps enjoy watching young men and women be martyred so these politicians can continue to exploit every damn part of our society. Who benefits from a war but the 1%? 


….I understand the act of terrorism in Pahalgam has invoked many feelings in everybody but let’s please use that energy to stay on top of news that is objective. Discussions can be endless and ultimately meaningless unless we take an active interest in geo-politics, war or not.

Reasonable_War5271

1. F16(american) was apparently shot down using s400(russian)

2. Western media narrative started to change against India.

3. Have you ever seen any country (let alone Pakistan, asking for a loan on twitter? Definitely staged) The IMF never approved Pakistan loans this fast. It's always negotiations upon negotiations before approval of the loan. Since the US has a majority of economic funds in the IMF it has the highest power to vote. (Assuming China(which has two votes- one as a single country, another as a combined nation) and Saudi - the two single voting countries were not in our favour). India realised expressing solidarity didn't actually turn into action. 

4. I thought this might be the reason for India to agree to  cease fire. But it didn't make sense when I went back and saw Jaishankar's reactions to agree to sanctions imposed on Russia a couple of years ago. 

5. People on flightradar 24  spotted american energy department's flight in Pakistan. Probably nuclear leakage did take place.

6. India got scared. Russia and Israel are nuclear power nations engaging in war for years where their and their supporters economy is getting sanctioned/cancelled and they haven't yet used their nuclear power. Nuclear power is a huge thing which neither countries didn't want to escalate nor admit that has happened. Which led to a ceasefire.

7. No matter what trump rushes and gives briefing, India has always maintained for years that it doesn't need any mediator when it comes to dealing with Pakistan. He just don't understand that it's more than "I don't do business if you both engage in a war". Here we are dealing with terrorists. When India was firm not to abide sanctions imposed for Russia, I don't think India would get scared that trump would do no business with us. He just wanted to mask his failures about Russia - Ukraine, Gaza - Israel war. 


It's been a couple of years since I favoured DD news over private news channels. They don't shout in the name of reporting nor they have fights in the name of debate. They cover more news in half an hour than that of 24/7 news channels which repeats same thing till they get their next sensational news. After this incident, my feelings of unfavorable turned into hatred towards them.

Also I don't think america, russia, china should  treat India and Pakistan as a market to sell their weapons.

Odd-Description-

I have no objection with ceasefire but 
1) I think ceasefire was done prematurely and under pressure. Indian armed forces should have been given more time to achieve their objective. 

2) This conflict exposed the flawed foreign policy of this current regime. Hardly any country came in support of us .

3) The fact that a foreign president declared ceasefire for us is humiliating and a great setback to India’s sovereignty and stature. U.S should never have been allowed by the Indian government to even enter the discussion, let alone mediate. For now, our PM should openly and unequivocally denounce US influence in this decision to save some face. 

4) If the objective of Operarion Sindoor was deterrence then I don’t think we have achieved it. There is no deterring the Pakistani regime. Their bread and butter runs on terror camps. The only way we can solve it is if the current power structure in that country ( Army -ISI rule) collapses and a stable democracy takes its place. 

5) However, if the objective of this operation was to do PR , photo op and show jingoism then yes we have succeeded. 

At the end we need to reflect on why we started this operation , what its objective was and whether we even achieved that objective before declaring ceasefire. Euphoric jingoism can give us momentary pleasure but our country needs a long term plan and a government with a spine that can follow that plan if we need to eradicate the issue of terror attacks. It’s a given that Pakistan will launch another terror attack against India. What then? Will we do another short operation and declare ceasefire? It’s high time we rose from temporary short term, feel good operations and think of how to get rid of this issue altogether.

Winter-Ladder-3591

India taking a hard stand again Pakistan funded terrorism was long time coming. We have always been a pacifist nation not taking any sides in any conflict and fiercely protecting our interests as a developing third world country. But we have been passive too long against terror elements funded and armed by other side of the border. We have sent a clear international message that while india is still a secular democracy looking forward, we will now follow zero tolerance policy for any threats to national security. Like I said, long time coming

bl_ueberrycheesecake

Operation Sindoor has been phenomenal success and there's no doubt about it. Not only India hit terror targets but also inflicted substantial damage to enemy air-bases. It had to be done honestly, only goes on to show that India will move mountains for the safety of her people. The overall media handling could have been done better. Perception matters a lot in International politics and the way things are, it feels underwhelming even though we are the superior side in this conflict.

China has a definite skin in the game in how situations have unfolded. Not only does it supply arms to Pakistan, it has also vouched for Pak's territorial integrity and their right to self-defend. China gains if India is occupied on borders. Wars are costly and no country can effectively focus on its economy and fight a war in parallel.

One unusual thing has been the pace of USA's involvement. They weren't so bothered in the start with their VP Vance saying "it's nothing to do with them". I think they bought Pak's nuclear bluff. Nobody has anything to do with Pak but no body wants to see it disintegrated too. Our neighbour has an advantage on how geographically well placed it is. Plus Trump's trade fascination.

Majestic_Year_801

I just feel bad for the civilians, they are the only ones suffering. And no one cares about them. For the "revenge" of 26 lives, we lost 26 more lives, what about them? will we go on another "retaliation" for them? when does it all end? At one point it becomes a dick riding contest with both sides ready to sacrifice their innocent citizens as "collateral"

also was this worth it? can there be a gurantee that there will be no terrorist attacks anymore?

In the midst of all this everyone forgot to ask the right questions, what about those terrorists? were they captured? and the covid deaths and how badly it was underreported, and what about the **colossal diplomatic failure?** no one is fucking questioning the govt and demanding accountability.

rantkween

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