Public opinion on the recognition of Palestinian statehood is characterized by deep polarization and mixed sentiments. While there is cautious optimism and hope for recognition and peace among some commenters, many express skepticism regarding the sincerity and effectiveness of these gestures amid ongoing violence and humanitarian crises in Gaza. There are calls for justice, accountability, and substantial action beyond symbolic gestures.

Palestinian Authority

Israeli Government

International Community

WoIfed

It's always kind of weird how Palestine (well the PLO) is pursuing the state option these days.  I don't see how with a recognized state they can be advocating for the right of their "citizens" to immigrate into another country as a condition for normalcy. That's seems way out of line for state to state discussions

meister2983

These two places need a no-man’s land and wall like N and S Korea. Just stay away from each other.,

calguy1955

The sad truth: It will reinforce the mentality on the Palestinian side that violence is the way to achieve political ends.

The lesson is clear -- October 7th has, among many other and varied repercussions, led to increased international recognition of the Palestinian state, which makes the Hamas approach more attractive in the future.

RufusTheFirefly

If Palestinians hadn’t done what they did on Oct 7 and continued to hold so many hostages for so long (effectively lengthening the war), this wouldn’t have happened. Terror pays off, sacrificing your own people pays off handsomely

riverboatcapn

It gives other terrorist groups a green light to use more kidnapping, terrorism, suicide bombings, as a means. Since its shown to work.

Forsaken-Proof1600

The article states that


 1. The recognition of Palestine's independence allows other states to use more significant mechanisms to influence Israel than when Palestine had an uncertain status. 


2. It allows Palestine to join as a full-fledged participant in the convention that protects the rights of citizens.


3. It makes it impossible for Israel to annex all the territories of Palestine that it captured after 1967 (de jure - as an internationally recognized territory)

Any-Original-6113

Nothing. Their requirement (for good reason) is still that hamas have no part in it. And hamas will never accept it - so we are in the same exact place we have been for the past 2 years, except now all those western countries can wash their hands of it and look good to their populations' left-leaning factions.

heytherehellogoodbye

It shows how weak these western countries are against terrorism. If they reward terrorism, let’s see what else they can do.

winterchainz

I actually think this recognition thing is a good thing

I think it's a push to end this nearly-century-long conflict once and for all.

Either Palestine becomes a real state, recognizes and co-exists next to the State of Israel and everyone lives happily ever after.

Or, more likely, this bolsters Palestinian terrorism and violence, the new Palestinian state becomes run either officially or behind the scenes by fundamentalist Jihadist terrorists (which Israel will be able to detect via intelligence anyways) - this Israel will not be willing or able to tolerate, especially post-7/10 and Israel will invade and capture both Gaza and the West Bank, possibly annex, who knows what will happen to the millions of Palestinians, and thus reaching the other side of the end of the nearly-century-long conflict.

Either way, this move brings us close to a resolution, one way or the other.

ZeroByter

Israel wouldn't spend so much resources and energy on lobbying, if global opinion didn't matter to them. So this announcement stings.

It would be better to combine it with binding actions though.

polemism

Establishes the diplomatic framework for the Palestinians to eventually get their own state through international pressure.

calamondingarden

Largely nothing. 


I think it's a "middle of the road" option for countries who arent pro-Israel OR pro-hamas but are pro peace.


It creates room for dialogue. 


It really shouldnt be so contentious. It's a sign of the times. 


Edit: whole lotta bots up in here pushing the idea that recognition somehow promotes terrorism. I wonder who benefits from that being the top comments? 

Feeling-Parking-7866

It's a power move and the right one. Israel does not have the authority to decide the statehood of Palestine. The West is now just following over 100 other countries so it's not like something outrageous. 

With this the West (except Germany and the US) is drawing some clear red lines. If Israel wants to escalate and break them very fast just follow what Ben Gvir and Smotrich are demanding right now and annex the state of Palestine (plus other areas Israel is currently occupying). There are still 10% in Germany who are supporting the ongoing war in Gaza. If Israel crosses the red line those will become 5% and the German government will change their opinion as well. 

I don't get the "Hamas is rewarded" way of thinking. Hamas will not be part of the political landscape in Palestine. Their ideas are not and won't be tolerated from the West. So what did Hamas achieve? That the PA/PLO/Fatah are now forever in charge if they play it smart? Those "technocrats" are rallying politicians and NGOs all around the world to give them the political power in a new state. Right now their PR campaign seems to work.

If people think that Hamas is happy with a Palestinian state without them....idk what to say. Now a new government will get the money, gear and political backing to sweep the daily life, areas and political thought of Hamas/the Muslim brotherhood and their ideas. What was before a civil war, not really interesting for most of the world, is now a carte blanche against Hamas.

Now, the PA, Abbas and many of those factions are still corrupt and some are even still hopeful to destroy Israel one day. But to accept Palestine as a state will demand changes from the government that would have not been possible before. If they don't behave the world can now easily use sanctions. If we view Palestine now as a state instead of a giant refugee crisis (like many today in the West), people are more willing to accept harsh measures against Palestine. So if we still find disgusting textbooks from the education department in the near future it's time to stop some payments  or openly demand a political change. 

They can now also support the democratic movement easier and the local civil society can better help/train (upcoming) democrats as well.

Itakie

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AutoModerator

I think it's important for countries to recognize Palestine also recognize that

1. the citizens of Palestine are exactly that, citizens of a state. Thus they cannot be described as "stateless"
2. because they are not stateless, they cannot be described as refugees. More particularly, because they reside in Palestine, they especially cannot be described as refugees from Palestine.
3. they possess no right to settle outside of the state of Palestine (for example in Israel) without the permission of the sovereign government there.

Complete-Proposal729

Let's not forget that the PA celebrated Oct. 7 and blamed Israel.  They also mounted a massive diplomatic campaign to help Hamas survive.   They also pay terrorists for every attack.  They also let Hamas entrench itself in the West Bank.  The PA/PLO is still a terrorist organization.  It never stopped being one.

B0wwsser

UNRWA will also become a thing of the past, right? Of course you’re not a refugee if you’re in your home country, after all.

1000thusername

“Palestine” can now collapse like the USSR. Thank you France, UK, Canada!

Baconkings

Palestine must return the hostages unconditionally, as stated by the ICJ.
Failure to do so is a war crime.
Abbas should be arrested next time he visits one of those countries that made him king

Cool-Courage-4681

Gaza was an independent Palestinian state since 2005. They even have a border with Egypt which Israel have zero control over. They shot rockets at Israel so Israel put a partial blockade, a 100% legal and common sense measure between warring states, it doesn't make it less of a state.  
October 7th was a genocidal massacre by the state of Palestine against Jewish women and children.

vegan437

This is all moral grandstanding. I've not heard Palestinians calling for a state, they want someone else's state. Even if the whole world recognizes them as a state they themselves won't. 

I'll call it.

A few days before recognition there's going to be a widespread third intifada, stated reason will be some trumped up charges like someone slaughtering a goat on the mount but reality is they don't want recognition. All these bumbling countries will have an excuse to put recognition on the back burner.

CholentSoup

No_Discussion6913

But the Palestinians are virtuous victims that can not no wrong unlike the groups that represent them with their support. 

*(I hate needing to add the /s  though will to avoid the downvotes from those that miss the abundant sarcasm)*

Small-Objective9248

Don’t worry, this won’t improve anything. There will still be walled Palestinian “refugee camps” run by the UN right in the middle of Palestinian cities full of people who have never lived anywhere else and who have no civil rights or access to normal health care or education.

assatumcaulfield

People should have always said Palestine or Gaza instead of Hamas.

 Not using Palestine or Gaza isn't about statehood, it's about infantalising the Palestinian, and ignoring their long-standing, admitted and overarching belief in the destruction of Jews and the Jewish state. 

It's always been the Gaza-Israel war, Palestine-Israel War. That still doesn't fully capture the culpability and involvement of axis powers like Russia, China, Iran, Qatar,  or how the war is also a panArabist, pan Islamic, Axis war against Israel and the West. But using Palestine/Gaza, is a start.

Ok_Ambassador9091

You make a good point, then the idiotic leaders, like 'my' Prime Minister, Keir Starmer will know who they are rewarding.

Working_thru_stuff

Ionisation1934

WW_the_Exonian

I've never stopped saying Gaza did it.

No one's saying "The Red Army is invading Ukraine."  It's Russia.

"The PLA of the CCP want to invade Taiwan."  It's China.

Gaza did it and Gazan citizens support them.  I always say Gaza.

I do distinguish Hezbollah and Lebanon.  But that's because the Lebanese people and government are against Hezbollah.

WorkerClass

Let’s watch the videos again to see these Palestinian State Citizens cheering their government for attacking Israel and kidnapping, killing, raping and torturing Israeli citizens.

https://preview.redd.it/xhwislhbzfif1.jpeg?width=1125&amp;format=pjpg&amp;auto=webp&amp;s=d520230209b34a1f192326aa2591b765963ab75f

This is what the countries that acknowledge the Palestinian state accept.

mynameisnotsparta

Relevant meme:

https://9gag.com/gag/aGyb74K

livluvlaflrn3

Idk about this. Like Sec Rubio said, there is no Palestine state unless Israel allows it.

the_immovable

jseego

I don't know about you but I'm absolutely recognising the Basque, Catalan and Irish states.

pandapornotaku

That's the thing - there are different regimes in Gaza and in J&amp;S. Some call it Hamastan, including Netanyahu. It's for a reason.

gal_z

Because this move by the EU is purely symbolic. Nobody really cares until repercussions occur

Constant-Listen834

I don't find this a very insightful article. Yes, Israel is the US's client state, not Europe's. Yes, recognition of Palestine is a diplomatic action. It would be nice to hear the author's idea of what he thinks would help, especially given that [a year ago, while writing for the BBC, he accused the US of superficial diplomacy in this matter](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cew1jkgd7n8o).

Falstaffe

Yes, that is how world hegemony works.

I think lay people really tend to not realize the unprecedented power of the United States. It is the sole superpower. The richest country the world has ever seen. The country with the most hard power and soft power by leagues (albeit Trump is doing a lot to dwindle that soft power). 

It has the world reserve currency, American consumerism drives the world economy, last I checked it is the greatest refiner of oil across the planet, with military bases in more countries than most people can name and battle experience in nearly every terrain, near all of Europe is dependent upon the US for it’s defense and much of the world is at the mercy of its military. If the US wants to bomb Iran, or Iranians in Afghanistan, or Venezuelans, or whomever else- who is gonna stop them? Really? 

If the world banded together to try and stop the US tomorrow, the US could murder-suicide the world economy by drawing an iron curtain. Not to mention most of the world is dependent upon the US for arms. 

China meanwhile may have a huge population, military, and economy, but it doesn’t have bases worldwide, the same client states, the technological and economic prowess yet, and it’s new-age military is not battle tested. 

The US has been the sole superpower since 1991. It has been a very very long time since international affairs has been organized as such. The power and influence the US wields is incredible. And all of its allies are just beginning to realize how terrifying that is and how helpless it makes them as Trump turns his ire on everybody but his autocratic buddies. 

The world may say Palestine is a state, but the US decides. Otherwise, everyone can try and force the US’ hand and see just how well that goes.

triscuitsrule

Performative things are easy to do. Europe has gotten comfortable in taking toothless morally superior positions and pretended to be above it all for the longest of times under American protection.

Europe is clearly put of its depth as a collective. It has managed to pay it's way out so far but those days are done. You need to be ready to bleed if want real influence.

And this is clearly evident from Germany, Poland, most countries bordering Russia, Japan, sk, Taiwan etc have all taken the American position. Those fat away can take a comfy position because they don't have to pay for it. And those who do have to pay aren't willing to.

SciFiHooked

Odd article. Symbolic recognition of an entity doesn't change anything anyway, and it's not like Europe is exerting any *actual* power to pressure Israel.  Hell, Israel could recognize a Palestinian state and it still wouldn't change the facts on the ground that said state is at best a vassal of Israel.

The article also completely ignores *why* no one is doing anything. Because there's no Palestinian government that actually has internal legitimacy that the outside powers (including Europe) would even accept.

&gt;  
Both Macron and Starmer brought up their countries' colonial legacies in the Middle East.  
  
They recalled how, after Britain pulled out of historical Palestine in 1948, the international community recognised the state of Israel.

&gt;Now, they said, they were recognising the equal right of Palestinians to their own state.

Odd history note.  The UK wasn't "colonizing" Palestine (technically that was the Zionists).  Additionally, the UK (though few others) recognized Jordan annexing the West Bank.  And that there wasn't much demand from the Palestinians at that point for a separate state anyway.

This is not supposed to move the needle on hard power, only on soft power

Soft power is a thing the US and Israel used to care for a lot, Israel still does, as evident by how invested they are in eurovision

Losing soft power, even if the amount of hard power remains unchanged, is very important, sure Israel will be able to continue with no grater difficulty at all, but they will be more and more isolated diplomatically

Commerce with Israel will decrease, and this action begets more disinvestnent, which absolutely could very easily be supplemented by Thr United States of course, but it makes you more and more dependent on one single power

The beauty of soft power is that it gives you diplomatic depth, the same way hard power gives you military depth, you can afford on any given issue to pursue independent policy since you have a wealth of nations that agree with you, so you can afford to disagree with some at any given time


By losing soft power, most particularly, two UNSC nations, Israel is making itself less independent than it used to be

And Considerinh how erratic US foreign policy is from 4 to 4 years, it's not something Israel would want

ale_93113

Hard disagree. It shows us eroding soft power. Previously this would never have happened if the us said no recognition. 

Mannipx

Submission Statement: the recent moves to recognize Palestine by european leaders have shown just how powerless europe is. Despite all of there moves to back Palestine and move against isreal there is no hope that this will actually succeed at stopping isreal. America is the only nation capable of influencing the region

colepercy120

I think this move will ultimately be less about power and more about being on the right side of history. This formal recognition by major European powers is potentially on the last dying gasps of the Palestinian people and State. A history of the genocide of the Palestinian people is already being formed.

Few-Coat1297

'Europe' has been broke since 1917 when the US took over funding allied participation in the Great War.

This turned the US into the "only power that counts," and it's why Wilson was able to show up at the end of the war and impose entirely new stipulations for peace. Stipulations that all-but-guaranteed another war.

After WW2 the US cut Germany in half and compelled the remaining European nations to surrender their colonies, along with all the resources/power they provided.

This left the US as the sole power.

The only hope for the West now is for Europe to unite. In the meantime, France really needs to step up and lead NATO.

PubliusDeLaMancha

Cool historical data visualization, thanks for citing your sources! A design suggestion - in the key you have the pie chart and designations of which color refers to which religious group. You could include another key asset in between the pie chart and the designations that are flat colors. 

Pie chart -&gt; smaller flat color -&gt; lines that connect to the data.

geoiao

IIRC it was illegal for Jews to own land outside of walled cities, except in the Galilee, which is why Jews cluster in Jerusalem, the Galilee (Safed + villages), and Gaza.

Gaza at the time was a center for Jewish religious cults like the predecessors of the sabbateans, people like Nathan of Gaza.

FudgeAtron

The coast that is today the heartland of israel looks completly unpopulated. The overall population also seems very low.

Psychological-Ebb677

You can see the areas where Jewish settlement would eventually be established, particularly the mostly empty  areas along the coast and in the Jezreel Valley up north 

These areas were more likely to be swampy and less desirable land, and thus it was easier and more economical to buy land in those areas for new Jewish towns and farms

michaelclas

Reminder: Safed (the largest Jewish area on this map) has been the center of so many attacks against the Jews, that Wiki even has a whole page dedicated to "Safed Massacre" in which you are presented with a list ranging from the 1517 massacre to the 1929 massacre

![gif](giphy|3og0IMJcSI8p6hYQXS)

TexasSikh

The Ottoman census was the first (that we have) compiled after centuries of Islamic domination.

Comparing it with pre-Islamic estimates, it’s noticeable a heavy population drop, and the cultural conversion of the remaining Roman Israelites (mainly Christian and Jewish) into Islam.

jore-hir

I am sure this thread will be full of cogent historical analysis, definitely without any slapfights over modern politics.

AshkenazeeYankee

At that time, the city of Jerusalem, despite its huge religious significance for Christians and Jews (less so for Muslims, at least then) was a strategically insignificant backwater part of the Ottoman Empire, and would remain so until the 19th century (when Russia and France would again make it important due to their religious activism).

The only major change in Jerusalem during the long Ottoman centuries was the fact that the Greek-Orthodox Patriarchate (with Ottoman support) became the largest and most influential land-owner, a position it retains even today in Israel/Palestine e.g. the Israeli parliament sits on land owned by the Greek-Orthodox Church. Before the Greek War of Independence in the early 19th century, the Greeks were very much favored by the Ottoman Sultans.

FGSM219

moozootookoo

AkuaLolo

Any data on Beer Sheva? Was it Abondoned at the time or were its records kept in Egypt?

smallsponges

[deleted]

Ambitious-Cat-5678

Sources are in the map. You can find the data I transcribed from the two books in [this](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1n71rH49R9sz_wZ6ZI_NrXVBUh678l_MsMa0kpK1-jy4/edit?usp=sharing) spreadsheet. The map was made with QGIS, Python, and Inkscape.

A note on names: since Palestine was entirely Arabic-speaking at this time, the labels for the cities are anachronistic. Specifically, Jerusalem, Hebron, and Safed would have respectively been called Al-Quds, Al-Khalil, and Safad as they are by Arabs in the present. I just chose to use their modern names because they are more recognizable.

Since the records recorded households and bachelors, the method of calculating population was simply summing these and multiplying by 5. It may seem foolish to count bachelors the same as households - however, it's clear that the census did not count bachelors in a consistent manner. For example, Liwa Safad has a much higher ratio of bachelors to households compared to the rest of the region. So I decided (as Hütteroth did) that treating bachelors differently would be more misleading than useful. I only tabulated population in the 20th century Mandate area. It may be noted that east of the Jordan River, there is a much larger nomadic population.

There were certainly Druze living here at this time, and most people consider them to be a distinct religious group from Muslims. However, the Ottoman tax records grouped them together, so there is no way to determine their population. There are some villages, especially in southern Syria, that have been recorded as being historically majority Druze, but I don't think it is possible to identify every village with Druze population.

Edit: Made a big mistake. Mixed up Ramallah and Ramla. You can see the correct version [here](https://www.reddit.com/user/mzrvtfni/comments/1ni4ggd/16th_century_palestine/).

mzrvtfni

SleepDefiant9096

Were Jaffa and Haifa really not very populated back then or is the data of this map incomplete?

Expert-Cell-3712

It’s interesting to look at but I hope nobody uses it trying to settle any current disputes. That would be nonsense. 

nimbledoor

I wonder what the population was before the Muslims invaded

here-g

Of course if the map was from 600AD there would be no Muslims. Do you have data from that period?

National_Play9220

It apparently was never a "land without people" then.

ProfAsmani

No tel'aviv as you can existed, It was founded by jews in the early 20th century

WilHELMMoreira

The map has so many inaccuracies especially when it comes to Christians.  
Haifa has always been predominantly Christian until 1761 when a certain caliph had it destroyed. It became slightly more Muslim by the 20th Century then the 1948 war basically saw all Muslims leave and while Haifa became majority Jewish, its Arab population went back to being majority Christian(only 4-5% of the population in Haifa are Muslim today versus 16% of the city's population being Christian Arab).  
At no point has Nazareth ever had Muslims before 1948. That is why when you visit there there are no Muslim historical landmarks. Nazareth became Muslim AFTER 1948 when Israel pushed many displaced Galileans to the city.  
So many green dots in places where Christian villages exist to this day, especially in the Galilee and in the middle of the West Bank!!  
Like how is Ramallah 75% Muslim in the 16th Century when it was Christian majority up to 1948??? Like was there an explosion in Christian birth rates from the 1600s to 1948?? There is a string of Christian villages that runs along a ridge from Ramallah to Jenin that is shown here as Muslim.   
I think someone was either forging the records or this is a deliberate misrepresentation.

As for Jews, pretty sure Hebron had more though they declined for a period as well.

Brilliant-Lab546

People saying jewish immigrants came to the empty lands is highly idiotic, some major cities not shown that are historically were under sieges and had wars later on (siege of akka for example). This map claims to be in the 16th century the zionist conquest started the first wave of immigrants in the late 19th century the demographic situation is significantly different. Even if the zionist takes empty lands who in the world would give up their land for strangers. Like people saying the UN gave them 55% most of it is the Negev, I would not give up my land to anyone even if it was nuclear waste land bombed into oblivion 1000 times

Dalbah

Careless-Ad6803

Roy1012

Dolmetscher1987

ilovemicroplastics_

Pretty cool that I can see my town here (it's a Jewish town now so obviously it had a different name back then). And no, my town was not ethnically cleansed of Arabs but purchased.

etaithespeedcuber

SatisfactionLivid291

There was no Palestine in the 16th century. It was just a suburb in the Ottoman Empire. British mandate Palestine began after world war 1.

UnlikelyAstronomer22

So far (3 comments), so civilized. We’ll see how long it lasts.
Thanks for the map and citations. I love citations.

FadeWayWay

There were 150 samaritans in the 1500s? No way. Can’t be possible

Alfalfa_Informal

Interesting that all the towns were perfect circles, except for that squiggly line of Jews in the east.

Warren_E_Cheezburger

Salty_Citron4737

Why was the coast so empty? Where's Jaffa?

yourstruly912

What are the two Christian towns south of Jerusalem? Is Bethlehem one?

cnzmur

from-the-deep-south

Do you have a map of Muslim and Jewish settlements in Palestine between 2,500 BCE and 600 CE?

Formul8r1

esse7777

As hard as this question is, and as much as I care for the people getting fucked, since when did kids from new york care about the middle east? Dont get me wrong, shit is fucked there, but let's not forget how bad we are fucked to not help them. Lets put our oxygen masks on first.

intercitty

Why does it not count the druze population in the area? There are many druze villages in the Galilee and near the north west next to Suweida, including mount Carmel

Soisha_the_norm

Ancient-Profile6682

This is actually a really amazing map. Im impressed. Did you make it yourself?

hypnoticbox30

Many people tend to forget that the ottomans resettled tens of thousands of muslim Circassians, Georgians, Bosnians, Albanians and Armenians to Palestine to balance the increasing jewsish population.

bergberg1991

what does "Settled" and "nomadic" mean here? Also do we know the populations of the 5 cities named in the map?

FurryRedditnik

Context:

* [Muslim conquest of the Levant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_the_Levant)
* [First Muslim conquest of Jerusalem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Muslim_conquest_of_Jerusalem)
* [Arab Conquest of Egypt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_conquest_of_Egypt)
* [Muslim Conquest of Maghreb](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_the_Maghreb)
* [Muslim Conquest of the Iberian Peninsula](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula)

Common_Attention_554

Enough-Vermicelli83

Separate-Lecture3660

It’s a way of doing something while at the same time doing nothing.  It’s perfect

TheNozzler

It's a fast and easy way for countries pretending to care about Palestine while continuing to trade and support Israel as usual. Basically a PR move

TheMasterOfSas

People can cope that the protests finally succeeded or that the politicians suddenly had a change of heart, but the reality is that they’re just trying to put pressure on Israel. Europe is terrified of another migrant crisis. They cant take millions of refugees from the Middle East. The last migrant crisis caused the rise of the far right.

Much_Guava_1396

Recognising Palestine as a state would change the legality of what Israel has been doing on and to the territories- this is why it hasn't been done by the key partner states like US and UK in the past.

Vexations83

Note that some of the countries have a list of provisions before doing so, like Hamas buggering off and having open and free elections, which isn't going to happen.

blue30

Recognising statehood is always dodgy, especially for countries with their own fractuous elements. 

But it's an important political tool. Israel fundamentally does not want Palestine recognised as a state, but their horrific actions with the famine are too severe to ignore.

Foreign recognition means the Palestinian Authority can open diplomatic relationships with those countries - embassies and treaties. Most importantly, it will trigger Britain, France, etc, to revisit their treaties with Israel.

If Britain recognises Palestine as a state, then they can now view Israel's actions as meeting a legal threshold of war crimes, and thereby exit various treaties they have with Israel. So, it can begin a withdraw of Western support.

For example, it would mean that Britain would no longer import agriculture from lands invaded and settled by Israel.

Dd_8630

Several Western nations officially recognized Palestine as a sovereign state during a UN General Assembly session, reflecting growing frustrations with ongoing violence in Gaza.

Recognition of Palestinian Statehood

Why This Matters

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