Public sentiment regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict is overwhelmingly critical of Israeli actions, with many commenters accusing Israel of genocide against Palestinians. There is a strong outcry for accountability from both Israel and Western governments, characterized by feelings of outrage, despair, and frustration. While some acknowledge the complexity of the conflict, the prevailing opinion remains that immediate action is necessary to address the ongoing violence and humanitarian crisis.

Israel

Western Governments

International Community

Is there a single post on /r/israelpalestine that COULDN’T be posted on this sub? I can’t imagine things are typically really calm and levelheaded over there

ellus1onist

A post on Israel/Palastine? See you all on SRDD!


(Also, the formatting makes this a nightmare on mobile)

Satherian

byniri_returns

That sub bans posts critical of moderation:

&gt;Per [Rule 9](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_9._avoid_vague_claims_of_bias), do not make vague claims of bias about the sub or its moderation. If you have legitimate concerns post them (in detail including examples) in a Rule 7 waived post or Modmail.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1n8ihh2/comment/ncg9u9l/?utm\_source=share&amp;utm\_medium=web3x&amp;utm\_name=web3xcss&amp;utm\_term=1&amp;utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1n8ihh2/comment/ncg9u9l/?utm_source=share&amp;utm_medium=web3x&amp;utm_name=web3xcss&amp;utm_term=1&amp;utm_content=share_button)

Since the mods decide what is a "vague claim", every piece of criticism is a "vague claim".

eatingpotatochips

It’s just utterly horrifying to me that people are in any way willing to still make excuses for the atrocities committed by the Israeli military and settler groups.

TaseerDC

&gt;This was a hard week for people believing it is a genocide in Gaza...

I mean, if you believe there is an ongoing genocide in Gaza (or that any X entity is going through Y traumatic event for that matter), every week's a hard week. That's kind of how empathy works.

Icy-Cockroach4515

“A discussion in r slash IsraelPalestine - ”

Already said it all, no thank you. This IS and airport and I AM going to announce my departure.

noncontrolled

Pallywood is honestly one of the worst term I've ever seen considering what it implies

YoF3

Can IP discussion really even qualify for this sub anymore?

Chataboutgames

Dude not even the most diehard zionists ive encountered would claim that their isnt violence occuring

Extreme-Order5774

you do know r/Israelpalestine is a psyop right?

DiskoB0

That whole sub is a cesspool. There’s hardly anyone representing the Palestinian side anymore. The mods are pro-Israeli and were “looking” for Palestinian mods for years now. 

I was personally banned over a year ago despite joining and participating in good faith for +3 years. But it gives an insight into the deprived mind of a pro-Israeli during this genocide

thebolts

"Don't piss in the popcorn" is long dead.

Silver_Atractic

The Israeli government and IDF claim loudly and openly "I LOVE MASS MURDERING GAZANS THEY ALL DESERVE TO DIE AND IT'S GREAT THAT WE'RE DOING SO", israelis very openly celebrate and jubilate at every death and justify the blood and violence. And then these idiots pretend it's all fake and that israelis themselves are lying I guess. it very much feels like the way neonazis will say "the holocaust is fake. but also we didn't kill nearly enough jews".

EliBadBrains

That sub is really filled with racism and support got genocide, I have seen some of the vilest things on reddit over there

waiv

Posting this for show people what Israel stands for

"No electricity, no food, no water, no gas. It's all closed. We are fighting animals and are acting accordingly." Yoav Gallant, Israeli Defense Minister

"Gaza will eventually turn into a city of tents. There will be no buildings." Daniel Hagari, IDF Spokesperson

"Bring down buildings!! Bomb without distinction!! Stop with this impotence. You have ability. There is worldwide legitimacy! Flatten Gaza. Without mercy! This time, there is no room for mercy!" Revital Tali Gottlieb, Israeli MP for ruling party

"Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating the way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated." Yoav Kisch, Minister of Education

"Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal. Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist." Giora Eiland, Reservist Major General

"I really hope that our revenge, that of the State of Israel, on the cruel enemy - will be a very big revenge. I don't call them human animals because that would be insulting to animals." Sara Netanyahu, Prime Minister's wife

"I don't care about Gaza. I literally don't care at all. They can go out and swim in the sea. I want to see dead bodies of terrorists around Gaza." May Golan, Member of the Knesset

"We must not show mercy to cruel people, there is no place for any humanitarian gestures - we must erase the memory of Amalek." Boaz Bismuth, Member of the Knesset

"If the Prime Minister Netanyahu and his ministers cared about the State of Israel, there would already be 150,000 dead in the Gaza Strip, and not even a single building would be standing in the Strip." Aryeh Yitzhak King, Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem

"On the first night, we should have taken down 50,000 Gazans, as a blood revenge. Cabinet discussions later, humanitarian later, prisoners and missing persons later. The first check - blood revenge. This is what Ben Gurion knew." Eliyau Yosian, IDF Military Intelligence Unit 8200, awarded the Israel Defence Prize

"We still have not revenged in a biblical way...we did not burn Gaza to ashes immediately. Create a tremendous humanity crisis. Level the entire area. Do not leave a stone upon stone in Gaza. Gaza needs to turn to Dresden. Annihilate Gaza now!" Moshe Feiglin, Former MK

"We are striking our enemies with unprecedented might. I emphasize that this is only the beginning." Benjamin Netanyahu, Israeli Prime Minister

"Now in Gaza there are only two types of Palestinians: Palestinians who support and are graduates of Hamas's Nazi education and Palestinians who serve as human shields for them. We can and must bomb both." Amit Halevi, MK

"Erase Gaza from the face of the earth. Let the Gazan monsters rush to the southern border and flee into Egypt, or die. And let them die badly. Gaza should be wiped off the map." Galit Distel-Atbaryan, Member of the Knesset

"The name Gaza should be erased from streets and institutions." Eliyahu Revivo, Member of the Knesset

"We are too humane. Burn Gaza now. No less!" Nissim Vaturi, MK and Deputy Speaker of the Knesset

"There are no innocents in Gaza" Avigdor Lieberman, Former Minister of Finance, Deputy Prime Minister

"Today it is clear to everyone that all Gazans must be destroyed." Moshe Saada, Knesset Member

"We must find ways for Gazans that are more painful than death" Amichay Eliyahu, Minister of Heritage

[deleted]

There’s no fucking way a significant amount of people think most people pictures and videos of the genocide are fake. That can’t be true. I hope.

GolfWhole

The bullied often turn in to bullies themselves.

NexusMinds

It’s pretty remarkable how Israel-Palestine discussion coalesces into “that side is all evil subhumans and they should be exterminated; the only reason someone would disagree is that the greedy nefarious subhumans are paying them, or they hate my ethnic or national group, who are all saints by the way.” 

There’s not really a good sub for this kind of thing, and “israelpalestine” is no exception. Hell, worldnews, neoliberal (for a while, less so now), and a few other subs all fell into the “Palestinians are subhuman and saying otherwise is antisemitic” cesspit. 

On the other hand, “israel_palestine” has the opposite problem, as does politics. 

Mapporn is the battleground.

Call_Me_Clark

That sub ain't in neutral position that promotes two-state solution, definitely goes zionist leaning. Atp they should rename it r/IsraelIsrael

Alzex_Lexza

Why do people defend israel? what is the appeal? polticians I get because they have close ties in trading but random people on the internet? even many right wing people don't like israel. though that is mostly because they don't want too be drafted into a war

Stock_Rush_9204

&gt;You’re making the argument that the suffering is fake, or that it’s manipulating the public perception, but you don’t realize that that method of denial was used to keep Jews subjugated to the Shoah. There’s really not a lot of difference in the grand scheme of human nature.

&gt;On top of that, the tone of the comment feels condescending from both commenters here.


&gt;tell someone who cares


I really really hate that this is pretty much what the israel/palestinian commentary boils down to. Lot of the comments on that sub are pretty fucking gross

Unique-Egg-461

What, and I cannot stress this enough, the actual fuck?

SPINOISJE

Believe it or not this sub has gotten slightly better, before at the start you would be auto banned for saying anything bad about Israel at all. 

The real cesspool has been worldnews for the past year or so.

piss_rael

Israel is a facist state supported by it's mostly facist society. Who knew?

Jolly_Personality184

OP did you really need to copy the entire post along with every reply thread? No one is reading all that

fawlen

Linking a site literally called 'honestreporting.com' feels like some sort of joke, why even call it that

Vinylmaster3000

That sub has always been a place to legitimize dehumanizing arguments against the Palestinian people and argue in favor of further escalating violence.

The original mod team used to say so much unhinged stuff. I think most now switched to alts to try to make it appear like the sub is an open debate sub instead of a pro-apartheid circlejerk.

PlenitudeOpulence

Anybody defending Israel still at this point on time is just deranged.

ToothpickTequila

There's an IsraelPalestine subreddit? ...why? To get people from both view points together? To argue with people online? This shit is serious, it's not a fun "haha ketchup vs mustard debate". Someone coming in to say "yeah my brother was literally blown up before my eyes yesterday, let me hear some opposing view points and have a rigorous debate".

The second linked comment also proves my point. "Are all journalist reports just fake?" "Yes". What do you do with that? There's no point in arguing with people there. Fundamentally no one's opinion is going to change with any evidence, let alone arguing with some online stranger.

Tribalrage24

Seems like a good way of resolving this debate would be to letting journalists unfettered access to Gaza…

daveirl

If Holocaust happened today some ppl would never believe it's not all AI.

PandaCheese2016

Fascism and propaganda is just thriving in so many corners of earth it seems.

lilithskies

that sub is just stale hasbara being regurgitated ad nauseam

Drab_Majesty

Having a Zionist tell me about “pallywood” was one of the first things that made me anti-Israel.

snailorT

I really don't get how anyone can defend Israel's actions unless they're very ignorant or just arguing in bad faith.

I recently turned into an adult (fuck, it was like 3 years ago now gd) but im a young adult in america, i had genuinely 0 opinion about gaza/israel/palestine/anything. I wont fucking lie the most I know of it was some people chanting 'free palestine' in that internet historian dashcon video i think. Like, that was the depth (or rather, shallowness) of my knowledge towards it.

When Oct 7 happened, I was disgusted and shocked obv. I was 100% on the side of 'Israel needs to wipe all the terrorists out no matter what' (didnt help that western media basically unilaterally said that) but slowly month after month seeing more and more innocent people die its impossible to 1984 it anymore. 

Like my opinion went from 'israel good, defend' to 'oh man theyre kinda going overboard, but i guess there's nothing we can really do i mean america has ties to israel we cant just stop shipping stuff there' to months of deaths and genocide and starvation later 'oh fuck we are really just watching these people be exterminated and supporting it (well, the government anyways)'

Regardless of where you were born or what you believe, nobody deserves to live in fear like this. Tens of thousands of children murdered, tens of thousands more turned into future potential combatants in the region, all caused by israel's desire to make a jewish state.

  
like genuinely idgaf what people do, believe what you want and just leave people the fuck alone, but when they are doing this theyre showing the world that its okay to just exterminate people you dont like while saying 'war is peace, freedom is slavery' etc and getting billions from us in foreign aid. its just...maddening.

blanaba-split

NoorInayaS

There’s so many false claims about Israel and biased organisations/people that there’s little that is being said that I can trust to be true.

If it turned out a mossad agent was behind Amnesty International claiming Israel killed more journalists than were killed in WWII, I wouldn’t be surprised.

El_dorado_au

You know, two whole years ago, I defended Israel’s right to retaliate for the horrific events of October 7th, but for the last two years they’ve been dropping bombs and rolling tanks against unarmed people, mostly children.

Gaza’s last election was in 2006.  Most of the people alive in Palestine have never voted for any government in their lives.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election

You can hate Hamas all you want, but at some point you have to admit that Israel just wants to clear out the Palestinians so that they can fully annex Gaza.

IceNein

Fun fact: the "Palestine" part of that sub's name is silent. It's pronounced /r/Israel.

Morgn_Ladimore

If people that denied the holocaust are ridiculed, i propose this people should be treated the same way.

elnegativo

Well the chief in charge taught us that gas lighting works. So it's not a surprise when people online emulate him.

samuelazers

"This was a hard week for people believing it is a genocide in Gaza..."

"Inside are a dozen links to various websites and YouTube videos where they suggest not only that there is no genocide, but there is no famine." 

It's almost like earlier this week, it was revealed that Google signed a $45 million dollar deal with Israel to spread messaging, quote, "to explain that there is no hunger" in Gaza, despite the UN officially declaring famine in August.

maldhard

That sub has historically been a place where people pretend to back a two state solution but it’s really just Zionists trying to sway well meaning pro Palestinians

Background_Inside909

People have paid good money to become experts and say it's a genocide. How dare anyone question their 30 dollars.

Unit8200-TruthBomb

My brother in christ! When the world's experts are calling it a genocide. When any person who specializes in the study of genocide tell you its a genocide. When peoples that have been victims of genocide tell you this is a genocide. When the perpetrators of the crime themselves tell you what it is a genocide. When all these groups who have dedicated their lives to distinguish between genocide or not, tell you that it is, you can be pretty certain they are telling you the truth.
These whole non-genocide babble is becoming almost indistinguishable from anti-vaxx/anti climate change nonsense. 
Brother, the consensus is there. Deniers are fringe "specialists" in a topic they are likely out of their depth.

Clans

Genocide isn't the bar that has to be cleared for the Israeli government's Gaza policy to be indefensible at this point. I think it's very difficult to argue that there aren't very serious war crimes being committed (in bello, not ad bellum).

glossotekton

I think you could quite easily call what's happening in Ukraine a genocide too. In fact I think it meets the formal definition perfectly. The only reasons it generally isn't is because Ukraine has a relatively capable military (compared to Hamas and other military groups) and has held their own. Remove Western support and it would full blown become one and get called so by everyone

joemarcou

What you need to ask yourself is not whether what is happening fits an arbitrary definition of anything, nor if the numbers are larger or smaller than other similar events, semantics aren't really important but just are you comfortable morally/ethically supporting the killing of innocent civilians with no end goal or solution in sight.  

Who cares what it's called?

Do you think it's right or wrong?

oswaldbuzzington

It’s about intent and tactic. Not numbers. This take is tiring. But so is the obsession with the word genocide. There have been *no Israeli civilian deaths since Oct 7th attributed to the war*. There’s been only a handful of IDF deaths in 2025. Meanwhile civilian deaths are still regularly occurring, and starvation is happening in Gaza and many are on the brink of death or at minimum living under extreme conditions. This is a one sided scenario. These are nuanced points that paint the picture better than a single word. I believe Israel has a right to defend itself, but this is no longer defense. It’s that simple. When you cut supplies, lay siege, and the differences in death and destruction are this stark between the two sides, you don’t need a single word to define what’s going on. 

This does not negate the fact that Hamas and other groups in Palestine are ideologically incompatible with a functioning Palestinian state in the modern world, or the fact that this is primarily all their fault. All of these things are true at the same time. Posts like this are attempts to try and draw distinct black and white lines between good or bad. This is a failure of Sam’s to come out and discuss. It is a blind spot of his and it also doesn’t take away from his other important insights to this conflict and everything else. 

dayda

[This article](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jul/24/israel-genocide-gaza) presents the case for genocide succinctly.

iAmLono

You're shouting into the void here my friend. This sub is tfg.

0.7 people killed per ton of bomb dropped is a pretty low ratio....It shows that civilian death is not maximized or inefficient for the amount of bombs dropped. It is hard to ascertain genocidal intent from that.

fuggitdude22

&gt;I am not arguing "its not genocide because not enough people have died."

&gt;Its not genocide because so few people have died in comparison to how many should be could or could be dead had the intent existed.

You are literally arguing that that not enough people have died.

atrovotrono

Or the other conflicts in the region.   Sudan, Syra, Yemen, about 1.3 million deaths in total.   Gaza maybe 60,000.

It's pretty clearly it is WHO is doing the fighting.

Many Muslims consider Jews to be Dhimmi and Muslim supremacy being affronted by Israel's consistent superiority on the field of battle.

Fascists and racists have used Judaism as a global conspiracy of evil to fight for decades now.   Some Christians for centuries.

And Marxist philosophical thought that came out of the European intelligentsia movement sees all conflict in terms of the oppressed vs oppressor, and that the weak are automatically righteous no matter what they do.

Plus it was advantageous to label the Democratic candidates genociders, when the GOP candidate is clearly actively more supportive.

It's a perfect storm of nonsense.

dnext

I made this mistake as well but genocide is not just people being killed. It is the eradication of a people’s way of life and customs as well. So it isn’t just the killing of people it is the flattening of their whole country and way of life. There are people in the Israeli government actively calling for forced relocation of the population as well. I do honestly believe that the conflict probably started in good faith to defeat Hamas but the decimation of a whole country seems to have become acceptable collateral damage for the Israeli government. Does anyone even know what the end game is anymore? How many 10s thousand of innocents have to die before it becomes obscene.

Seditional

The point of Israel’s assault is to create an inhospitable standard of living for the Palestinian people and usurp the land. It’s a genocide of culture, if not life. There are thousands upon thousands of dead women and children. Shame.

Dioneo

They're killing children and civilians at will. They let settlers steal their land. They bomb their infrastructure and their homes. It's a genocide.

His_Shadow

It was always absurd. If Israel wanted to carry out a genocide it could do it.

bogues04

Why do most Israel apologists seem to think a genocide has to happen quickly or not at all?

Taye_Brigston

Here's a counterpoint for anyone interested.  By some estimates the killing in Gaza is closer to 150/day. [https://peterbeinart.substack.com/p/more-deaths-than-kishinev-sharpeville](https://peterbeinart.substack.com/p/more-deaths-than-kishinev-sharpeville)

Low_Insurance_9176

Genocide doesn't simply depend on the numbers so this feels like a weak argument to me.

If the goal is to level Gaza, remove hamas and then displace and even remove the Palastinian population and so on, it could still be a genocide.

Most experts on the topic of genocide seem to be in agreement there is either a genocide going on, or characteristics very close to one. I don't think it's absurd, unless you think these experts are somehow totally clueless on the topic?

Heretosee123

It’s not a war the same way the Warsaw ghetto wasn’t a war

lazyant

The use of the term genocide has become a kind of red-herring to the simple fact that it is clear the Netanyahu regime has no regard for the death and suffering of Palestinians. Debate the term all you want, to deny the claim I’m making is to be willfully blind to what is happening on the ground.

Netherland5430

Why only look at one city in the Ukrainian conflict. A city fought over early in the war when neither side was really prepared for the conflict that just started.




This post is the definition of cherry picking. 

karlack26

https://apple.news/AIxLl3r3lTrGXl627olHJ_Q

Seems really something that this sub is more extreme than trump on this. Just supporting the daily massacres of starving people, because the people being shot are in a “death cult” apparently. Even if they are infants.

Any_Platypus_1182

Not all genocides look like death camps where aim is to exterminate as many of the population as quickly as possible, some genocides are slow.

Genocides require two things: 

▶️ Intent to eradicate a population *in whole or in part*

▶️ Actions consistent with that intent 

In this case, the intention isn't to kill everyone as quickly as possible, the intention is ethnic cleansing: To pressure Palestinians to leave the strip and to pressure countries (Ethiopia, Indonesia and Libya) into accepting Palestinians by making the humanitarian conditions dire.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-implementation-of-trumps-gaza-relocation-plan-is-condition-for-ending-war/

https://www.axios.com/2025/07/18/israel-send-palestinians-gaza-indonesia-ethiopia

So how do they make the humanitarian conditions as dire as possible? 

▶️ By killing large numbers of them (reasonable estimates are that there were over [100,000 dead](https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/2024/IndirectDeathsGaza) in the first year alone with most of them dying from starvation rather than being direct casualties)

▶️ By destroying homes, schools and hospitals. This makes living conditions extremely difficult and pregnancy and birth extremely dangerous. 

▶️ By bringing the population to brink of starvation through inducing famine conditions. [According to the IPC](https://www.ipcinfo.org/ipcinfo-website/countries-in-focus-archive/issue-124/en/), back in May 244,000 were in catastrophe and 925,000 were in emergency famine conditions.
Catastrophe: 2+ people die per day per 10,000
Emergency: 1 - 2 people die per day per 10,000

That means in May, we were probably seeing at least 190 people dying due to starvation every day.

It gets worse though because the famine conditions are expected to have deteriorated significantly since May:

&gt; From 11 May to the end of September 2025, the whole territory is classified in Emergency (IPC Phase 4), with the entire population expected to face Crisis or worse acute food insecurity (IPC Phase 3 or above). This includes 470,000 people (22 percent of the population) in Catastrophe (IPC Phase 5), over a million people (54 percent) in Emergency (IPC Phase 4) and the remaining half million (24 percent) in Crisis (IPC Phase 3). This marks a significant deterioration compared to the previous IPC analysis (released in October 2024) and the already dire conditions detected between 1 April - 10 May 2025. During this time, 1.95 million people (93 percent) were classified in Crisis or worse (IPC Phase 3 or above), including 244,000 people (12 percent) in IPC Phase 5 (Catastrophe) and 925,000 (44 percent) in IPC Phase 4 (Emergency). 

There is easily enough here to show that they are carrying out actions consistent with genocide (remember that genocide means in whole or in part) and the intent is to make them desperate enough to forsake this strip (this is now stated openly).

It's interesting to me that people used to argue about the intent part of this but now they've abandoned that and moved on to how not enough of them have been killed. I think with the large number of starvation deaths, we will soon be approaching decimation (10%). [In the first year alone, we were already close to 5%](https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/2024/IndirectDeathsGaza). These numbers are enormous and the humanitarian condition is dire and very obviously intended.

Aceofspades25

It's always been absurd. They could go through with a real genocide any time they wanted. Not to mention, Hamas is the cause of so many of their own civilians being put in danger. They don't put them in the tunnels. 

AllGearedUp

At what point does focusing on disproving genocide instead of focusing on the very well-documented war crimes committed by Israel become an exercise of bad faith?

LGL27

If Isreal invited the Palestinians back in and took the walls down then it would be ridiculous…

Away_Wolverine_6734

It's always been absurd.

This ongoing concept creep has cheapened the impact of what ought to be the most heinous crime imaginable. But that's the point. This accusation is not designed to describe the war, but to delegitimise Israel. That's why Iran paid South Africa to take the case to the ICJ.

What you need to understand is that in postcolonial critical theory, colonialism is almost always accompanied by genocide. So this is of a piece with a narrative that Israel is a settler colonialist power replacing the indigenous population. The forces pushing to vilify Israel in Gaza for the most part already considered Zionism to be genocide well before the war.

spaniel_rage

Israel have a longer timeline they are established they. An keep stopping a d starting unilt they've thinks RF wants to give them a short sharp shock.

PseudoPatriotsNotPog

Israel is apparently not allowed to defend itself..!

Geoarbitrage

I'm not finding fault in your argument and similarly Im interested in rebuttals to Sam's argument that if Hamas put down there weapons, the war would be over, and that the opposite isn't true.

heethin

Because we don’t have the full scale of death that came between two nations in arguably the most brutal modern military exchange in the 21st century, it’s not genocide?

I don’t agree with your premises or conclusion.

Ahnarcho

They changed the definition of genocide from what we all were used to, when people use it now they just mean 'war time actions'

toroidalvoid

Because people have been fooled by the Hamas propaganda, are ignorant of the history of the Israel / palestine conflict and are convinced they are morally in the right because influencers on tiktok or islamists playing the victim told them as such. Once you are arguing from a position of absolute moral superiority, you want to use big words that have big meanings so you can accuse Israel of the most heinous crimes in the history of mankind. Some do not understand the definition of genocide and others are intentionally suspending disbelief or arguing in bad faith so they can win attempt to win arguments and make Israel look evil for defending itself. It doesn't help that international organizations like the ICJ and UN have been co-opted by islamists, antisemites and useful woke idiots who are trying to trying change the definition of genocide to "getting your ass kicked in a war that your government started with a brutal terror attack and taking of hostages." 

There is no genocide in gaza. However, I do think you can criticize israel for their methods of fighting the war in their wanton acceptance of civilian collateral damage in their obvious primary objective of targeting hamas militants and limiting aid entering gaza. Both of these topics are justifiable from an Israeli militaristic standpoint but I think are open to being criticized. Claiming targeting hamas militants hiding behind the civilian population is a genocide is an absolute canard given the numbers and facts and any one who alleges as such is not a serious interlocutor.

Dr0me

How about Israel and their ongoing history of ethnic cleansing

Lenin_Lime

All these experts would say one thing or the other depending which channel they are watching. If you read Al Jazeera, any other news media outlet that trust what Hamas says, doesn't believe a word from the IDF and cherry picks what israelis says, plus lot of reports from "anonymous sources" or the very un trustable UN reports in anything related to Israel from even before the war, then they will arrive to one only conclusion.

If you dont trust anonymous witnesses, think Hamas isn't a trustable group, understand that Al Jazeera isn't news but only propaganda and know about the anti israel bias UN institutions have and you actually try to learn the truth. Then the conclusion is another one.

SnooWords72

I think the issue with Gaza is not about numbers of dead but whether Israel has an intent to eliminate the Palestinian people, and whether the deaths in Gaza are in furtherance of that goal. I don’t see evidence of that, although I don’t doubt someone like Smotrich advocates otherwise, his views do not determine the intent of the government.  

I think the Ukraine war is more likely to be genocide given the Russian government position is that Ukraine doesn’t exist, and that the people and the territory are Russian.

Unhappy_Pattern_4333

The legal definition of genocide includes more than just death rate.

treeHeim

Evidently its becoming less and less absurd by the day. Numbers dont matter. Definitions dont matter. Its like asking questions about trans issues a couple years ago. "transfobe!" Legitimate questions. Genocide functions the same way. Its used so much not because it fits, but because it doesnt. It shuts down conversation and brings moral clarity that is ambiguous.

Agingerjew

I feel like any attempt to debate with you would just consist of quoting the definition of genocide to you and you saying, Nuh uh.

PrestigiousRope1971

In reality, neither are genocides because there is no real evidence of intent, even if there is evidence of not caring that much about civilian deaths. Civilians are unfortunately common casualties of war, and I don't think you can blame Israel or Ukraine for defending themselves, but Hamas and Russia can be blamed for starting the war in the first place.

The problem is compounded in Gaza because it's such a small space and Egypt won't let any refugees in. With the siege of Mariupol, the Russians could at least have allowed the civilians to escape but just kept shelling.

People will just lie and make things up to say Israel is committing a genocide in the same way as Russia does to make out that Ukraine is committing a genocide because they're dishonest and want to make the other side look as bad as possible.

hexmasx

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DeltaBot

There's lots of history and nuance to the conflict, but I'm not sure how much it matters.

Let's say you read *Zionism and the Arabs, 1882-1948: a study of Ideology* by Yosef Gorny, Professor of Study of Zionism and head of the Zionist Research Institute at the Tel Aviv University.

It's an interesting read and gives you a clear idea of the changes and impacts of Zionist ideology over the decades up to Israel's foundation.

However, does it make an iota of difference to whether the war crimes of either side are acceptable? Does it make any difference to what the internationally recognised just solution is? No.

Neither side should commit war crimes and Israel needs to end its occupation so a Palestinian state can be allowed to exist on 1967 green line borders. There's a lot of nuance but what matters is fairly simple.

Toverhead

Can you link us to some examples of these "many online narratives" that are the subject of your view? I don't think I've seen any recent discourse about this topic that is _not_ about "what's going on in Gaza" so it seems like you must be talking about either very old discourse or else discourse from some part of the internet that I'm unaware of where people care about the Israel–Palestine conflict but don't particularly care about the current Gaza situation.

yyzjertl

Palestinians aren’t widely descended from other ethnic groups in the region. They are levantines with minor admixture. This is an incredibly important distinction to make because your claim is a very popular and widely debunked Zionist propaganda point.

PickFeisty750

As is said in this excellent [video essay](https://youtu.be/3xottY-7m3k), the situation is complex in that *a lot of things happened*, but not complex in terms of its morals. The essayist likens it to a bar fight: if you show up in the middle it looks like both are villains because there's a lot of scuffling and biting. But we have the ability to look back into history and see that there was someone who clearly threw the first punch. And that first person was actually the UK.


If the UK had lived up to the promises Lawrence of Arabia had made to the Arabian Tribes that they would be granted independence, if they hadn't instead made the Balfour Declaration and signed the Sykes-Picot agreement, then there wouldn't be a Hamas today. 


Now, I'm not claiming that there wouldn't have been any conflict, but the interference of the imperial powers in these regions turned local conflicts into global proxy wars. And although the current political quagmire is a mess, I think it's both fair and useful to summarize the Palestinian conflict thus:


"The british promised Palestine their own state in exchange for helping them in World War 1, and then stabbed Palestine in the back by instead giving the land they were promised to a bunch of foreigners in a move that was as much fueled by anti-semites looking to justify ethno-states as it was by Jewish Zionists. There has been endless conflict since."

VenDraciese

It's dismissed because no one cares or bothers to go beyond a headline, Twitter post, or a TikTok video made by someone who also only read a headline, a Twitter post, or watched a different TikTok. 

Political discourse as a whole is filled with brain rotted nonsense because reading is hard and takes time. It's more fun to just yell online at people. Who wants to spend a weeks reading when you can just repeat the same 3 things everyone else does and all just yell at other people who say the same 3 things for their side.

imoutofnames90

I see factual mistakes in there, sorry.

What "Palestinian national identity" prior to 1948? I'm serious. That wording implies that Arabs living in Jerusalem would FEEL and CLAIM to be a different NATION than Arabs living in Beirut, Damascus, or Medina. Do you have any documented (and properly OLD, as in pre-1900) proofs that this was ever an actual truth? I'm explicitly excluding any modern claims, because that's retroactive history rewriting. Have you seen (and can you link) to any documents (pre-1900) that would explicitly point out that "Arabs in Palestine DO NOT share the same NATION as Arabs in Lebanon, Syria, Arabia"? Because if not, what basis is there for any such claims of NATIONHOOD, as opposed to "location geography"? And, yes, there is a huge contextual difference between the two. Especially when their entire CLAIM boils down to: "Palestinians are a SEPARATE STANDALONE NATION." As opposed to, ahem: "Palestinians are literally generic Arabs who happened to live in the region called Palestine, the same way some other Arabs happened to live in the region called Lebanon, but both groups DO NOT view themselves as being SEPARATE from each other." This IS important.

"Occupation" of WHAT, exactly? Britain? Jordan? Egypt? Thing is, when those territories were released from being "owned" by Jordan and Egypt, they DID NOT immediately "automatically turn into the STATE of Palestine" - or we wouldn't HAVE the whole "still NOT recognized" issue of TODAY, ya know. So, given how at that time there was no STATE called Palestine - then parts of what STATE did Israel "occupy"? See, you can't "occupy" a LAND, you can only occupy a part of a STATE specifically (the point being that this LAND already had an official OWNER). But in this case, there was NO STATE in the first place, no? So, again, parts of what STATE did Israel "occupy"?

And the last point is predictable. You BLAME Israel for Islamic expansionism and terrorist mentality. As usual.

JewAndProud613

You're not wrong, but you're crying in the rain.

The thing is that random internet commentators commenting on \*any\* conflict are going to, by and large, have somewhat simplistic views of the conflict. It only seems particularly grating in this instance because, frankly, this is probably the most studied and commented on conflict presently ongoing by a large margin. This shit probably in spitting distance of competing with the two world wars for attention. But if someone said something that was woefully reductionist about the Bakassi conflict, I wouldn't know because I don't know \*shit\* about the Bakassi conflict.

debordisdead

&gt; Why I See Oversimplification as Misleading
&gt; Claims that the conflict is “simple” erase shared roots, dual refugee crises, settlement politics, extremism, and repeated civilian suffering.

I often see rhetoric of “you are oversimplifying things” and “this is too complex” used by a very specific group of people: self-described moderate Zionists, often in western countries, who largely support Israel but feel uncomfortable openly defending some of Israel’s worst abuses. 

They tend to say this in response to criticism from pro-Palestinian activists. 

For example, activists will say “ethnic cleansing is bad, so why do you support Israel’s ethnic cleansing?” and the response is “you’re oversimplifying it”, because people feel uncomfortable saying “Yes I do support ethnic cleansing.” 

I dislike this as it is basically a means of deflection, a means of avoiding confronting the issues and (especially) of kicking the can down the road. It allows them to defend doing nothing and support the Israel-controlled status quo by saying “I can’t do anything, its too complicated”. 

—

I think you are ignoring the fact that in many ways this conflict **is** simple. It is a classic colonial conflict over land. 

Zionists think that Palestine was given to the jews, either by God or by the British, or that they legitimately took it by force of arms, and therefore think they have a right to take over most of it or all of it and rule that as a jewish state. 

Conversely, Palestinians, already living there, see Palestine as their home and homeland, and assert that they have the same rights to self-determination, property, and self-governance as any other people of any other former colonial territory - without being invaded and displaced by a bunch of outside immigrants seeking to take over most of their country. 

The conflict is only “complicated” if you support Zionism, and thus support the Zionist claims, but still maintain some normal western liberal values, so then try to square Zionism and support for Israel with normal opposition to ethnic cleansing, opposition to Apartheid, support for human rights etc. 

If you don’t think that “the land is inherently jewish” or “given to the jews by God” then the conflict is fairly clear: Zionists want Palestine and Palestinian land, and have been fighting a century+ long war to get it, and the Palestinians don’t want to give it up, just like anyone else in any other country who had similar invaders / settlers pitch up. 

— 

Even if you do support Zionism, for whatever reason, there are many aspects of the conflict that are very simple: 

1. Most people should be able to agree that ethnic cleansing is wrong, so that ethnic cleansing carried out by Israel is also wrong, and so Palestinians ethnically cleansed by Israel should have a right to return to their homes (like jewish victims of ethnic cleansing) and that Israel should not carry out **more** ethnic cleansing e.g. in Gaza. 

2. Most people should also be able to agree that Apartheid is bad, like Israel implements in the West Bank. 

3. Most people, who aren’t racist, should be able to agree that Palestinians deserve the same rights (right to life, right to self defence, right to self determination) as jewish Israelis. That seems like a fairly easy principle to accept. So the killing of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians by Israel should be seen as just as bad as the killing of an equal number, or less, jewish Israelis by e.g. Hamas. Likewise, if you think Israelis deserve protection by a foreign funded anti-missile system, so should the people of Gaza. 

4. If you already support imposing sanctions on other countries, like Russia, when they break international law by attacking and / or invading and annexing parts of other countries, then you should support the same penalty on Israel for the same crimes. 

5. Lastly, if you think that racist and religious discrimination is bad, e.g. governments treating people as inferior based on their skin color or religion, you should apply the same principle to Israel (and any Palestinian state). 

I think these points are entirely valid, entirely simple, and should be more widely accepted. 

I think that a lot of people, especially people in western countries, use disingenuous excuses like “it’s complicated” and “you’re oversimplifying” to ignore points like these, and avoid confronting these issues directly.  

And I think that’s wrong. In many ways the conflict is extremely simple. 

Veyron2000

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