Public sentiment regarding the Israel-Hamas conflict is intensely polarized, showcasing a mixture of empathy for humanitarian suffering, frustration over ongoing violence, and calls for historical understanding. While some commenters express robust support for Palestinian rights and condemn what they perceive as Israeli atrocities, others defend Israel's actions as necessary for self-defense. The overarching narrative reflects a deep desire for peace and resolution amidst a complex historical backdrop, marked by grave concerns about the humanitarian crisis and accusations of dehumanization on both sides.

Israel

Hamas

Political Leaders

This is a very good, thoughtful, reasonable analysis.

I’ve long hoped for a two state solution, but you’re right—the only people who want it are a vanishing number of Israelis. 

The Palestinians are the Black Knight from Monty Python. Start a fight; lose a limb; and on and on and on. It stuns me that this group can be so aggressive, and lose so badly again and again, and yet never give up because to lose to Jews…the humiliation! The first people in 2000 years to LOSE to JEWS! 

I don’t know where we go from here. But I know the only hope either side has is to settle for half a loaf.

DogwelderZeta

The solution is simple, the palestinians need to accept defeat, surrender and make peace. They cant win militarily, their diplomatic efforts wont lead to a real state, so just make peace and get the best deal possible.

Straight_Dot3625

Great analysis. Ive been trying to explain this to the western world for a long time. If you pressure 1 side (which currently is israel) and not the other, you create a situation where the pressured side is entranched in its position. Israel being pressured to remove the wall for example is simply asking israel to accept weekly suicide bombings in resturants, public transport and malls. About a year to/few months ago, there were multiple busses planted with explosives that were discovered by mistake. This is like 1 case out of the possibly hundreds that are stopped by the fact theres walls there and israeli intelligence combating these cases. Think of the wall as a filter, if theres 100 active plots and 90 are intercepted by israeli intelligence, the remaining 10 still have the wall to go through and considering they will be carrying bombs, they are not likely to get past an israeli checkpoint.

While on the palestinian side, they see israel being pressured, so why change? You don't have to accept israel when the entire world puts its boot down on its throat. If both were pressured at the same time, israel over the settlements, and palestine over its national identity and ambition to remove israel as its percieved justice, you will have actual progress. Instead we just get western countries giving freebies like recognizing palestine without any conditions.

The one thing I don't quite agree with is that the conflict originated with national identity in mind. The palestinian national identity hasn't fully formed until around the 60's (but it was starting to form since the 1920's). So the start of the conflict was religious in my opinion. As the arabs that are known today as palestinians, were occupied by Jordan and Egypt (even relinquished their claim to these lands at the time) but did not treat neither as occupations and directed its violence at israel instead. To me this indicates that it was bsaed on religion or at the very least at the start, before shifting to national after the palestinian national identity has formed.

c00ld0c26

This is a great analysis and I fully agree with your recommendations. The fact is that a 2SS is the only realistic outcome here that doesn't result in genocide against either side, and the world needs to take the gloves off and pressure both sides to achieve it.

cobcat

&gt;The two national aspirations, are completely incompatible. 

Nailed it. That is the essence of this entire conflict distilled into one sentence. I have said for years that we are two sides of the same coin, and until people truly understand that, nothing will ever change.

I get it. Everyone hates “big bad Israel.” But what so many fail to grasp is that history could have just as easily flipped due to the incompatibility of vying for the same prize that only one could actually atain. The exact same circumstances could have easily produced the reverse narrative.

The only reason we are in this reality, where Israel exists and is vilified, is because Israel won the many wars waged against it. That is it. Not because of supremacy, or genocide, or any of the labels thrown around today. It is because they fought for survival and won. The Palestinians also fought for survival, and lost time and time again. That is the difference.

That is what makes the moral framing of this conflict so incredibly fragile and so impossibly thin. Victory, *not* virtue, determined who is seen as good and who is seen as evil at it's core. The Israelis are essentially as seen as 'bad' because they didn't die. The line separating the two is razor thin. The sides could have easily been reversed, and that truth is what most people cannot or will not accept. Until people accept it, nothing will ever change.

I think it's absolutely worth asking yourself and exploring: If the historical outcome had been flipped, would I find myself supporting the other side?

BananaValuable1000

Overall a pretty accurate analysis but you are wrong and generalising on the part about Palestinian national aspirations, they are much more divided and not united as a people on what they want than Israeli’s, which has been one of the main barriers to a solution in all this time.

Tiny-Work-1843

You have done a really good job in this post.  I am reminded over and over of the Irish troubles looking at the I/P conflict

iDichotomy

This is the way I would explain it to a child: 

This is a religious war between jews and Muslims. The moment Israel was born, the muslims wanted them dead. The muslims formed alliances and started war with Israel multiple times. Despite their numbers, they lose every time. The muslims even lost their own territory in wars with Israel they initiate. Palestine is one of those territories the muslims lost. 

The muslims know they cannot take on Israel head to head or face to face. They will lose every time. So the muslims have changed their strategy. They give gazans money, guns and bombs to attack Israel from within. The Gazan government (hamas) lives underground. They come outside to attack Israel, but they are hit and run attacks. Israel is put into a position where they have to choose between defending themselves but killing civilians or doing nothing and just letting hamas attack.

th1s_fuck1ng_guy

As long as the Palestinian national aspirations are to extinguish the Jewish national aspirations, this conflict will persist.

Additionally, this conflict persists because the intransigent aggressor side is the weaker side and can't win by force, and the stronger side is either unwilling or diplomatically unable to shift out of a defensive mode and impose on the weaker side a proper total defeat.

No, the answer is not for Israelis to cede more territory or grant more autonomy to people led by political groups devoted to the specifically-violent dismantling of Israel. When the "Gaza settlement enterprise" was not only stopped but forcefully undone in 2005, Gazans rewarded the Israelis with \~20 years of rocket attacks, \*5\* wars with their elected government Hamas, and 10/7. The Palestinian response to a historic unilateral concession - not de-escalation but escalation (!) - is borderline psychotic.

I've never heard of an oppressed people who explicitly turn away from peaceful conflict resolution and demand that the struggle be fought violently. Harming Jews is seemingly baked into the cake. Palestinians as an aggregate group behave far more like aspiring oppressors than the oppressed searching for relief.

That-Relation-5846

Ye, as another comment says, you're underestimating the gravity of the Islamic doctrine. It created the predisposition Palestinians had towards Jews. It drove the resistance of both the Palestinian elites and the populace. And it remains the central narrative of Hamas’s dogma until today. Just look at their ceasefire statement.


Nationalism came after - and it wasn't just in opposition to Zionism. There were genuine and independent nationslist movements in Palestine, until Haj-Amin marginalized all of them by 1936 and instilled total rejectionism as the only one.

-Mr-Papaya

&gt; The Israelis have deluded themselves into thinking that they can indefinitely continue to occupy the Palestinians

Here you play fast and loose with what it means to "occupy the Palestinians". I suspect you want it to mean Israel just needs to withdraw from Gaza and WB, and then there can be peace, which is a cute fantasy. But according to the Palestinians, Israel existing with any borders at all is an illegitimate Zionist entity unjustly occupying Palestine. As long as they believe that, peace is impossible.

Western_Audience_859

so as usual pressure Israel to ... long list. unless Palestinians change. but of course if this puts pressure on Israel they will not change. and the "world" will be the judge of Israel's morals? most of the world is not even democratic,  part of it considers married woman's face immoral. get real. 


Palestinians indeed seem intent on destroying themselves and nothing Israel or anyone else does can change that if they do not want to. 

CaregiverTime5713

Since you were kind enough to spend your time on this post I will assume that you will be gracious enough to accept some criticism.

This is first and foremost a religious conflict and not a national identity one. So i already disagree with your premise.  

There is a reason the entirety of the Muslim world supports the Palestinian cause, and that's because they are fellow muslims. There is a principle in islam called "waqf" which Jerusalem and the entire land of historic "Palestine" has been declared. For the dogmatic muslim, waqf is a divine gift from god and cannot be relinquished. It is therefore a grave sin to turn a blind eye to your divine land being occupied by non muslims. That's where hamas and Islamic jihad were born out of. Cut from the same cloth as the taliban. This is not a matter of opinion.

Your solution is to "simultaneously put pressure on both groups". To do what? Let's assume the end goal is a two state solution with palestine being in the west bank and gaza with israel out of it. There has never actually been a time where the west bank and gaza were left alone and the palestinians could build a state for their children.

Except 1948-1967. But war was chosen instead

Well that was ages ago. Maybe the american president should put pressure on israel to just give the palestinians the west bank and gaza and just have some peace.

 Camp david 2. Rejected. Second Intifada

Ok fuck it. Peace or no peace, withdraw from occupying the territories. Even if it's not safe to withdraw from the west bank because of how massive it is and how organized the militants would be, at least leave gaza alone. It's on a coastline and they might be able to create a new example of a great city state to show the world the palestinian project can happen side by side with israel.

2005 withdrawal. Hamas elected. Billions in aid laundered and sprnt on tunnels and embezzled by militant freedom fighters fucking their whores in a qatari hotel while their people starve.

It has been demonstrated that when israel.makes peace with countries that leave it the fuck alone, those countries are not threatened again. Look at egypt and Jordan..they offered lebanon. Still rejected

The posts of someone giving "their take" on this conflict and wisely stating both sides as if this is a balanced situation is actually worse than the screaming mangled pro palestinian. Because at least that dude is nuts. This is just political posturing disguised as balance and the untrained eye would see a post like this and conclude that historically competent and rational minds (which you seem to have) assign equal blame to both sides

lifeislife88

(2/2)

Guardian is unreliable as [https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/middle-east-incredible-display-people-power](https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/middle-east-incredible-display-people-power), [https://honestreporting.com/journalist-covering-mideast-conflict-for-the-new-york-times-i-support-the-palestinian-struggle-against-occupation/](https://honestreporting.com/journalist-covering-mideast-conflict-for-the-new-york-times-i-support-the-palestinian-struggle-against-occupation/), Matthew Cassel [https://camera-uk.org/2010/10/19/the-guardians-matthew-cassel-feels-a-jads-pain/](https://camera-uk.org/2010/10/19/the-guardians-matthew-cassel-feels-a-jads-pain/) was a guy with them who ran a documentary who was from E.I.

[https://ngo-monitor.org/ngos/electronic\_intifada/](https://ngo-monitor.org/ngos/electronic_intifada/), [https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/electronic-intifada/](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/electronic-intifada/), [https://www.camera.org/article/outlet/electronic-intifada/](https://www.camera.org/article/outlet/electronic-intifada/), EI is led by a guy arrested by the Swiss Security of the Federal Police.

[https://ngo-monitor.org/ngos/\_magazine/](https://ngo-monitor.org/ngos/_magazine/), [https://honestreporting.com/tag/972-magazine/](https://honestreporting.com/tag/972-magazine/), [https://ngo-monitor.org/sweeping-allegations-racism-rug-972-magazine/](https://ngo-monitor.org/sweeping-allegations-racism-rug-972-magazine/), 972 mag not reliable.

This "joint investigation" you refer to is a joint fiction.

AsaxenaSmallwood04

(1/2)

Local Call is literally an initative created by Just Vision and +972 Mag: [https://ngo-monitor.org/ngos/just-vision/](https://ngo-monitor.org/ngos/just-vision/), Just Vision receives $300,000 from the Rockefeller Brothers Fund and gave $171,000 to +972 Mag.

Rockefeller Brothers Fund:

\- Rockefeller Brothers Fund Funds JVP: [ADL Report exposes JVP member Rabbi Lynn Gottleib's ties to Ahmadinejad](https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/adl-report-jewish-voice-for-peace.pdf#:~:text=JVP%20(%20Jewish%20Voice%20for%20Peace%20),(%20Jewish%20people%20)%20institutions%20and%20organizations), Ahmadinejad who is a known holocaust denier amongst many other things including a silencer of NGOs and a hypocrite ([UN Watch Report Sept 24th 2007](https://unwatch.org/irans-ahmadinejad-criticized-human-rights-council/), [UN Watch Report Sept 24th 2012](https://unwatch.org/irans-mahmoud-ahmadinejad-makes-ironic-appearance-un-meeting/), [UN Watch Video Sept 24th 2012](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvyJh2sxQLc) and [UN Watch Report Oct 22nd 2012](https://unwatch.org/issue-386-un-watch-calls-indictment-ahmadinejad-iran-objects-usa-defends-un-watch/)) with [connections to Bashar Al Assad the Syrian dictator who genocided as many as 500K Syrians](https://unwatch.org/ahmadinejad-assad/). Additionally JVP has been jointly sued with SJP for blocking traffic at an airport [(JNS Sept 11, 2024)](https://www.jns.org/sjp-jvp-and-other-activist-groups-sued-for-blocking-traffic-at-airport/) and for terrorism ties [(JPost March 25, 2025)](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-847484#google_vignette).

\- Rockefeller Brothers Fund Funds Alliance For Global Justice (AFGJ): [Alliance For Global Justice has been sued for terrorism ties to PFLP as seen in a Washington Examiner Report](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/729321/left-wing-charity-faces-legal-complaint-over-fundraiser-for-palestinian-terror-linked-group/).

The best way I've seen to explain this:

I have a bowl of fruit, apples and bananas.

I can confirm definitively that at least 17% of the fruit are apples.

And journalists decide that 83% are bananas.

Technical-King-1412

&gt;This indicates that only about 17% of those killed were combatants

Incorrect. The only inference from this is that the IDF **has the names** of nearly 10,000 Hamas members killed in combat.

What these 'media outlets' have done is concluded that if you the IDF doesn't know the names of the people killed, they are civilians.

This is just more garbage journalism, and a new war standard applied to Israel - it must know the names of the people it kills.

triplevented

This claim cant be taken as gospel until after the war is over

*This indicates that only about 17% of those killed were combatants, meaning roughly 83% were civilians*

It indicates no such thing.

The IDF was able to conclusively identify 8,900 named fighters (out of the approximately 50,000 documented by them as active in the military).  That does not mean that every other person killed was a civilian.  Of the other people in whatever total we accept (53,000 likely being far too **low**), we have no way of knowing how many were combatants for whom the IDF did not know their names or was not able to identify specifically, or were not active in the military but became combatants at some later date.  It is pretty certain that, whatever this number is, it is greater than zero.

This identification is, of course, especially challenging when fighting opponents who often engage without wearing uniforms, from within areas densely populated with non-combatants.  Even more so when Hamas very deliberately refuses to distinguish combatants from non-combatants.

That's before considering that Israel has rejected the accuracy of the numbers.  Even if you take them entirely at face value it doesn't lead to such an extreme conclusion.

CrosbyBird

the only ok numbers is the percentage, but the real death count should be around the  200-500k

AdWorried4240

Probably a good idea to remind everyone here that figures provided by either side should be viewed with a general sense of skepticism. 

Ratios, percentages, etc. have no chance of being accurate at this point in the conflict.

spinek1

I think the better question is when in modern conflicts could an agitant NAME 17% of the dead combatants of an opposing aggitant.


Do you think Russia could NAME 17% of the dead Ukrainian soldiers?


The point that I see is that Israel's intelligence capacity is much higher than any pro palestinian can conceive.


Your reading of the article has a massive blind spot. . . For the meaning of words.

Ok-Pangolin1512

IDF stated at that point, they thought at least 17,000 militants had been killed as of January:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/more-than-46000-palestinians-killed-in-israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-officials-say#:\~:text=The%20Israeli%20military%20says%20it,militants%20operate%20in%20residential%20areas.

You're also basing your numbers on what Hamas is reporting, which is likely exaggerated.

Taxibl

&gt;"8,900 named fighters from Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad"

&gt;"5,942 IDF soldiers had been added to the official list of bereaved families in 2024 alone"

**The IDF's casualty rate is about 54% higher than that of US troops in the Vietnam War.**

Top-Reaction-5492

Who cares. 

This isnt a five alarm fire. This is you not reading and interpreting the article correctly 

Just because they COULD name almost 9000 doesn’t meant that the others aren’t terrorists too. 

Hamas has used and continues to use civilans for terrorist operations. Including children. 
This is confirmed via video and ALL hostage accounts. 

That is very concerning

Hot_Ease_4895

It doesn’t say that 17% are combatants. It says that 17% are named combatants. Be careful! You need to read carefully. One word can change the meaning. 

What about unnamed combatants?

JosephL_55

It provides a floor for the civilian to militant ratio but it doesn't say what the number actually is.

It's the difference between this being a database of the only people Israel has killed in entirety vs the only ones they can *specifically name*. They have surely taken out many others who were, for example, firing at troops, even though they did not know exactly who the person was.

So, it really just says "The civilian to militant ratio is not higher than 83%"

TheTrollerOfTrolls

No it doesn't, they don't have names of all the combatants for Hamas.  In fact, it means they are doing a damned good job of going after specific targets.

Masenmat

Don't forget, pro-Israelis spent almost 2 years lying to everyone, telling us the civilian-to-combatant death ratio was 1-to-1.

I don't understand why anyone believes anything they say anymore, when all they do is lie, lie, and lie.

mayman233

It's a bad article using bad statistics .to paint israel in a bas light

This is only about those killed that IDF knows who they are. It doesn't include if they killed Hamas members but don't know exactly which.

Melthengylf

Is there any evidence this “database” is reasonably complete? One doesn’t have to be a “Hamas or PIJ fighter” to be legally a combatant.

knign

 An 83% death toll if true is understandable considering......

1. Hamas terror group built 500 miles of tunnel DIRECTLY under civilians.
2. All the terrorists live with civilians.
3. The terrorists don't wear uniforms and deliberately confuse themselves with civilians.
4. They launch rockets from civilian areas.

Notice a trend so far? I'll continue.

5. The terrorists store their weapons with and under civilians.

6. Heck the hostages that the IDF rescued last year were in a civilian apartment building with literally 2000 civilians. Yeah, the IDF blasted their way in and killed many civilians. (remember point #2?) Is that the IDF's fault?

7. Hamas is the only fighting group in the history of planer earth that has lost militarily every single day of a 686 day war and won't surrender. No, they want to continue the fight. Well yeah, more people are dying.

8. And how about Egypt take in civilians trapped in the war zone???

Why does Poland take in Ukrainians?

Why does Turkey take in Syrians?

Why did Jordan take in Syrians and Iraqi's?

Why did Egypt (Yes EGYPT) take in Sudanese?

Why did Pakistan take in Iraqi's?

Why did Chad take in civilians from Sudan?

I'll ask again: Why won't Egypt take in a single Gazan? Not the old, not the young, not the sick.....NOBODY.

So if you're wondering why the civilian death toll is high maybe here's why.

Ya know what? 83% is pretty low all considering.

UnitDifferent3765

The figure of 8,900 named fighters from Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad shows that the IDF is lying when it says in **February 2024** that it has destroyed 17 of 24 Hamas battalions, because that would then be 8,500 to 13,600 fighters.

&gt;Such a civilian death rate is among the highest recorded in modern conflicts, comparable only to atrocities like Srebrenica, Rwanda, or Mariupol.

No it’s not. Very typical numbers for a military fighting an insurgencies.

Contundo

8,900 *named* fighters 

It's just the ones they have names for. Israel doesn't even know who every Hamas fighter is.

stockywocket

ah yes, an unnamed source has reported X. So when comparing it to a terrorist organization report on civilian casualties (none of it are it's own of course!) we get THIS statistics.

Shachar2like

It is very concerning. People will most likely dismiss this by attacking the credibility of the figures, or saying they were taken out of context. 

At this point, we are seeing it live-streamed and people are still not doing anything, I don't think it will change until unfortunately the casualties are much higher. It seems we have not learned anything from history.

crypto__lord

Is there a single post on /r/israelpalestine that COULDN’T be posted on this sub? I can’t imagine things are typically really calm and levelheaded over there

ellus1onist

A post on Israel/Palastine? See you all on SRDD!


(Also, the formatting makes this a nightmare on mobile)

Satherian

byniri_returns

That sub bans posts critical of moderation:

&gt;Per [Rule 9](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_9._avoid_vague_claims_of_bias), do not make vague claims of bias about the sub or its moderation. If you have legitimate concerns post them (in detail including examples) in a Rule 7 waived post or Modmail.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1n8ihh2/comment/ncg9u9l/?utm\_source=share&amp;utm\_medium=web3x&amp;utm\_name=web3xcss&amp;utm\_term=1&amp;utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1n8ihh2/comment/ncg9u9l/?utm_source=share&amp;utm_medium=web3x&amp;utm_name=web3xcss&amp;utm_term=1&amp;utm_content=share_button)

Since the mods decide what is a "vague claim", every piece of criticism is a "vague claim".

eatingpotatochips

Pallywood is honestly one of the worst term I've ever seen considering what it implies

YoF3

It’s just utterly horrifying to me that people are in any way willing to still make excuses for the atrocities committed by the Israeli military and settler groups.

TaseerDC

&gt;This was a hard week for people believing it is a genocide in Gaza...

I mean, if you believe there is an ongoing genocide in Gaza (or that any X entity is going through Y traumatic event for that matter), every week's a hard week. That's kind of how empathy works.

Icy-Cockroach4515

“A discussion in r slash IsraelPalestine - ”

Already said it all, no thank you. This IS and airport and I AM going to announce my departure.

noncontrolled

Can IP discussion really even qualify for this sub anymore?

Chataboutgames

Dude not even the most diehard zionists ive encountered would claim that their isnt violence occuring

Extreme-Order5774

you do know r/Israelpalestine is a psyop right?

DiskoB0

That whole sub is a cesspool. There’s hardly anyone representing the Palestinian side anymore. The mods are pro-Israeli and were “looking” for Palestinian mods for years now. 

I was personally banned over a year ago despite joining and participating in good faith for +3 years. But it gives an insight into the deprived mind of a pro-Israeli during this genocide

thebolts

"Don't piss in the popcorn" is long dead.

Silver_Atractic

The Israeli government and IDF claim loudly and openly "I LOVE MASS MURDERING GAZANS THEY ALL DESERVE TO DIE AND IT'S GREAT THAT WE'RE DOING SO", israelis very openly celebrate and jubilate at every death and justify the blood and violence. And then these idiots pretend it's all fake and that israelis themselves are lying I guess. it very much feels like the way neonazis will say "the holocaust is fake. but also we didn't kill nearly enough jews".

EliBadBrains

That sub is really filled with racism and support got genocide, I have seen some of the vilest things on reddit over there

waiv

Posting this for show people what Israel stands for

"No electricity, no food, no water, no gas. It's all closed. We are fighting animals and are acting accordingly." Yoav Gallant, Israeli Defense Minister

"Gaza will eventually turn into a city of tents. There will be no buildings." Daniel Hagari, IDF Spokesperson

"Bring down buildings!! Bomb without distinction!! Stop with this impotence. You have ability. There is worldwide legitimacy! Flatten Gaza. Without mercy! This time, there is no room for mercy!" Revital Tali Gottlieb, Israeli MP for ruling party

"Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating the way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated." Yoav Kisch, Minister of Education

"Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal. Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist." Giora Eiland, Reservist Major General

"I really hope that our revenge, that of the State of Israel, on the cruel enemy - will be a very big revenge. I don't call them human animals because that would be insulting to animals." Sara Netanyahu, Prime Minister's wife

"I don't care about Gaza. I literally don't care at all. They can go out and swim in the sea. I want to see dead bodies of terrorists around Gaza." May Golan, Member of the Knesset

"We must not show mercy to cruel people, there is no place for any humanitarian gestures - we must erase the memory of Amalek." Boaz Bismuth, Member of the Knesset

"If the Prime Minister Netanyahu and his ministers cared about the State of Israel, there would already be 150,000 dead in the Gaza Strip, and not even a single building would be standing in the Strip." Aryeh Yitzhak King, Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem

"On the first night, we should have taken down 50,000 Gazans, as a blood revenge. Cabinet discussions later, humanitarian later, prisoners and missing persons later. The first check - blood revenge. This is what Ben Gurion knew." Eliyau Yosian, IDF Military Intelligence Unit 8200, awarded the Israel Defence Prize

"We still have not revenged in a biblical way...we did not burn Gaza to ashes immediately. Create a tremendous humanity crisis. Level the entire area. Do not leave a stone upon stone in Gaza. Gaza needs to turn to Dresden. Annihilate Gaza now!" Moshe Feiglin, Former MK

"We are striking our enemies with unprecedented might. I emphasize that this is only the beginning." Benjamin Netanyahu, Israeli Prime Minister

"Now in Gaza there are only two types of Palestinians: Palestinians who support and are graduates of Hamas's Nazi education and Palestinians who serve as human shields for them. We can and must bomb both." Amit Halevi, MK

"Erase Gaza from the face of the earth. Let the Gazan monsters rush to the southern border and flee into Egypt, or die. And let them die badly. Gaza should be wiped off the map." Galit Distel-Atbaryan, Member of the Knesset

"The name Gaza should be erased from streets and institutions." Eliyahu Revivo, Member of the Knesset

"We are too humane. Burn Gaza now. No less!" Nissim Vaturi, MK and Deputy Speaker of the Knesset

"There are no innocents in Gaza" Avigdor Lieberman, Former Minister of Finance, Deputy Prime Minister

"Today it is clear to everyone that all Gazans must be destroyed." Moshe Saada, Knesset Member

"We must find ways for Gazans that are more painful than death" Amichay Eliyahu, Minister of Heritage

[deleted]

What, and I cannot stress this enough, the actual fuck?

SPINOISJE

There’s no fucking way a significant amount of people think most people pictures and videos of the genocide are fake. That can’t be true. I hope.

GolfWhole

The bullied often turn in to bullies themselves.

NexusMinds

It’s pretty remarkable how Israel-Palestine discussion coalesces into “that side is all evil subhumans and they should be exterminated; the only reason someone would disagree is that the greedy nefarious subhumans are paying them, or they hate my ethnic or national group, who are all saints by the way.” 

There’s not really a good sub for this kind of thing, and “israelpalestine” is no exception. Hell, worldnews, neoliberal (for a while, less so now), and a few other subs all fell into the “Palestinians are subhuman and saying otherwise is antisemitic” cesspit. 

On the other hand, “israel_palestine” has the opposite problem, as does politics. 

Mapporn is the battleground.

Call_Me_Clark

That sub ain't in neutral position that promotes two-state solution, definitely goes zionist leaning. Atp they should rename it r/IsraelIsrael

Alzex_Lexza

Why do people defend israel? what is the appeal? polticians I get because they have close ties in trading but random people on the internet? even many right wing people don't like israel. though that is mostly because they don't want too be drafted into a war

Stock_Rush_9204

&gt;You’re making the argument that the suffering is fake, or that it’s manipulating the public perception, but you don’t realize that that method of denial was used to keep Jews subjugated to the Shoah. There’s really not a lot of difference in the grand scheme of human nature.

&gt;On top of that, the tone of the comment feels condescending from both commenters here.


&gt;tell someone who cares


I really really hate that this is pretty much what the israel/palestinian commentary boils down to. Lot of the comments on that sub are pretty fucking gross

Unique-Egg-461

Believe it or not this sub has gotten slightly better, before at the start you would be auto banned for saying anything bad about Israel at all. 

The real cesspool has been worldnews for the past year or so.

piss_rael

Israel is a facist state supported by it's mostly facist society. Who knew?

Jolly_Personality184

OP did you really need to copy the entire post along with every reply thread? No one is reading all that

fawlen

Linking a site literally called 'honestreporting.com' feels like some sort of joke, why even call it that

Vinylmaster3000

That sub has always been a place to legitimize dehumanizing arguments against the Palestinian people and argue in favor of further escalating violence.

The original mod team used to say so much unhinged stuff. I think most now switched to alts to try to make it appear like the sub is an open debate sub instead of a pro-apartheid circlejerk.

PlenitudeOpulence

Anybody defending Israel still at this point on time is just deranged.

ToothpickTequila

There's an IsraelPalestine subreddit? ...why? To get people from both view points together? To argue with people online? This shit is serious, it's not a fun "haha ketchup vs mustard debate". Someone coming in to say "yeah my brother was literally blown up before my eyes yesterday, let me hear some opposing view points and have a rigorous debate".

The second linked comment also proves my point. "Are all journalist reports just fake?" "Yes". What do you do with that? There's no point in arguing with people there. Fundamentally no one's opinion is going to change with any evidence, let alone arguing with some online stranger.

Tribalrage24

Seems like a good way of resolving this debate would be to letting journalists unfettered access to Gaza…

daveirl

If Holocaust happened today some ppl would never believe it's not all AI.

PandaCheese2016

Fascism and propaganda is just thriving in so many corners of earth it seems.

lilithskies

that sub is just stale hasbara being regurgitated ad nauseam

Drab_Majesty

Having a Zionist tell me about “pallywood” was one of the first things that made me anti-Israel.

snailorT

I really don't get how anyone can defend Israel's actions unless they're very ignorant or just arguing in bad faith.

I recently turned into an adult (fuck, it was like 3 years ago now gd) but im a young adult in america, i had genuinely 0 opinion about gaza/israel/palestine/anything. I wont fucking lie the most I know of it was some people chanting 'free palestine' in that internet historian dashcon video i think. Like, that was the depth (or rather, shallowness) of my knowledge towards it.

When Oct 7 happened, I was disgusted and shocked obv. I was 100% on the side of 'Israel needs to wipe all the terrorists out no matter what' (didnt help that western media basically unilaterally said that) but slowly month after month seeing more and more innocent people die its impossible to 1984 it anymore. 

Like my opinion went from 'israel good, defend' to 'oh man theyre kinda going overboard, but i guess there's nothing we can really do i mean america has ties to israel we cant just stop shipping stuff there' to months of deaths and genocide and starvation later 'oh fuck we are really just watching these people be exterminated and supporting it (well, the government anyways)'

Regardless of where you were born or what you believe, nobody deserves to live in fear like this. Tens of thousands of children murdered, tens of thousands more turned into future potential combatants in the region, all caused by israel's desire to make a jewish state.

  
like genuinely idgaf what people do, believe what you want and just leave people the fuck alone, but when they are doing this theyre showing the world that its okay to just exterminate people you dont like while saying 'war is peace, freedom is slavery' etc and getting billions from us in foreign aid. its just...maddening.

blanaba-split

NoorInayaS

There’s so many false claims about Israel and biased organisations/people that there’s little that is being said that I can trust to be true.

If it turned out a mossad agent was behind Amnesty International claiming Israel killed more journalists than were killed in WWII, I wouldn’t be surprised.

El_dorado_au

You know, two whole years ago, I defended Israel’s right to retaliate for the horrific events of October 7th, but for the last two years they’ve been dropping bombs and rolling tanks against unarmed people, mostly children.

Gaza’s last election was in 2006.  Most of the people alive in Palestine have never voted for any government in their lives.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election

You can hate Hamas all you want, but at some point you have to admit that Israel just wants to clear out the Palestinians so that they can fully annex Gaza.

IceNein

Fun fact: the "Palestine" part of that sub's name is silent. It's pronounced /r/Israel.

Morgn_Ladimore

If people that denied the holocaust are ridiculed, i propose this people should be treated the same way.

elnegativo

Well the chief in charge taught us that gas lighting works. So it's not a surprise when people online emulate him.

samuelazers

"This was a hard week for people believing it is a genocide in Gaza..."

"Inside are a dozen links to various websites and YouTube videos where they suggest not only that there is no genocide, but there is no famine." 

It's almost like earlier this week, it was revealed that Google signed a $45 million dollar deal with Israel to spread messaging, quote, "to explain that there is no hunger" in Gaza, despite the UN officially declaring famine in August.

maldhard

That sub has historically been a place where people pretend to back a two state solution but it’s really just Zionists trying to sway well meaning pro Palestinians

Background_Inside909

People have paid good money to become experts and say it's a genocide. How dare anyone question their 30 dollars.

Unit8200-TruthBomb

The vast majority of what you said is factually accurate and your definition is spot on (as per Article 2 of the Genocide Convention), but in order to call something a genocide the dolus specialis (special intent) to commit such a crime has to be established beyond reasonable doubt and I think this is where you fall short.

The carnage: According to some estimates, Israel has dropped approximately 100.000 tonnes of explosives on Gaza, which is a 350 sqkm small landstrip with a population density of ~6000 per sqkm. 1000 tonnes of explosives is enough to obliterate everything within a 1sqkm radius. That’s 100 sqkms worth of total destruction. Israel has put in considerable effort to mitigate direct harm to civilians, the above proves it beyond doubt because if this wasn’t the case and the population wasn’t evacuated we should expect to see casualty numbers in the multiple hundreds of thousands. 

Gaza poses a unique and lethal threat to any ground forces regardless of their numbers and technological readiness. Virtually the entire Gaza Strip is saturated with 3-500 kms worth of tunnels with multiple thousands of hidden openings that enables troops to move concealed while carrying out hit-and-run attacks with low or no cost to their own forces. Narrow streets and high rise buildings further increase the threat level. These (and more) facts have rendered any ground attack infeasible, especially closer to the beginning of the conflict when Hamas was operating at full force. From what I am aware of, no report or expert concluding that the genocide allegations are true have entertained significant counter-factuals (such as the above) in detail before reaching that conclusion. 

Regarding aid: Multiple UN reports have admitted that the issue is with the distribution and they do blame the conduct of Israeli forces; in part. But they also named reasons such as looting and attacks (by militants) without detailing what percentage is due to factors outside of Israleli conduct. 

There were a number of incidents in which the IDF was involved and accused of killing people. The reports claiming that the IDF is systematically killing people seeking aid however fail to provide a control. There were hundreds of occasions where the IDF was involved in securing aid distribution sites or was at close proximity yet no incidents happened, the number of reported incidents however remains under a dozen. This allows as to conclude that we are talking about fringe incidents as opposed to systematic efforts. The number which you have cited includes those who have been killed by local militants as well as those by the IDF.

There is more of course but I am starved for time currently.

EstablishmentKooky50

"**with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group**"

Wow, this is the actual belief structure of the Palestinian people and Islam towards Jews and Israel.  Their sworn mission is the very existence is what you suggest - the total destruction and death to a whole group and nation of people - and the nation itself.

If we want people to stop dying in Hamas governed Gaza, that's simple and it can be over in a day.  Hamas surrender and turn over all their weapons.  The Government of the people (which happens to be a terrorist organization) started the war by attacking another country, targeting non-combatant citizens and illegally took non-combatant citizens as hostages - which it still holds illegally.

I agree, end the killing in Gaza - Hamas to Surrender and turn over their weapons and return their illegal hostages.

Until then, unfortunately the  people who voted for the Government will likely continue to die due to their government.  Sure, I feel sorry for the little kids who have not yet been trained to hate . . . and want to kill all Jews . . . but that sorry doesn't actually go very far, unfortunately.

Nobody loves and enjoys children dying in Gaza more than Hamas - they relish in it, they count on it, they encourage it, it's great PR for Hamas, they love and celebrate every News image posted around the world showing the death of a child as a result of their actions - but the world blaming it on their enemy.

generallydisagree

I know it seems like the most important part of your definition of genocide is your bullet points, but in reality? 

The entire definition of those bullet pointers, rest in one word; *intent*. 

Without intent, genocide is not possible. 

For example? 

Mass murderers who walk into a school and start mass shooting the school. This is not considered genocide because it wasn’t his intent. The intent is mass shooters is usually venting rage, attention, glory and pure malice. 

This is why, victims in war is rarely called genocide unless it started as a genocide. Like for example in Dafur. That war was started on the premise of genocide. The Muslims started slaughtering civilians who were not Muslim, *because they were not Muslims*. That was considered a genocide. Because the intent was to wipe all people who were not Muslim away. 


This is why most all other wars are not considered genocide. They are fighting for different reasons and causalities are expected in wars. I mean, war is to kill each other. It’s an expected outcome. 

I can’t believe I have to explain this to people but once again- 

I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the ICC investigations. But the ICC filed an investigation about Israel and the leaders of Hamas. One of the charges against Hamas was *deliberate mass exterminations* of the elderly, women and children- along with a slew of other things, like mass murder, torture, mass rape, mass hostage taking etc. using women and children as human shields. Etc 

The extermination complaint against the leaders of Hamas listed these reasons as follows; 

“For the mass killing of Israeli civilians during the October 7, 2023 attack, including at the Nova music festival and in southern Israeli towns.
– This includes both direct killings and acts that led to death and destruction on a mass scale.

	2.	Murder

	3.	Taking hostages

	4.	Rape and other acts of sexual violence

	5.	Torture and other inhumane acts

	6.	Persecution as a crime against humanity
– Based on targeting civilians due to their identity (e.g., being Israeli or Jewish).

	7.	Cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity”



See number 6? Number 6 lists the reason for the attacks as targeted against a population because they are Jewish and or Israeli. 

The ICC also filed complaints against Israeli leaders - the charge also included extermination but in this charge - extermination rationale is thus; 

“The siege/blockade
	•	Destruction of infrastructure (hospitals, water, power)
	•	Restrictions on humanitarian aid”

Now here is the legal definition according to international law of genocide ; 

“Genocide” means any of the following acts committed *with intent* to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. “

Now there is a key element to this definition and it’s; 

“Intent (“dolus specialis”)


	•	The specific intent to destroy a protected group, as such, in whole or in part, is *required*.”


So *genocide must have this intent or it’s not considered genocide* 

The biggest proof this isn’t genocide is in the facts of this war. 


Have you watched the attacks in October? 

Who kills children and women and the elderly with intention and deliberately ? 

Thousands of Palestinians intentionally , deliberately attacked Jewish civilians, of all ages, from infants to the elderly - they planned that. 

That was intentional targeting. Of an entire race of people because they were Israeli. 

Israel for its part - waited for over a month and dropped fliers on the population warning them of the war that was about to start. Telling them where to go to designated safe areas. 

That’s not genocide. That’s war and that’s war fought with modern standards or laws of war. 

The Palestinian population itself has grown over 500% since 1948. 

The fact that Israel is giving them aide at all while simultaneously fighting a war with them is .. unusual. No one else does this, or has done this. 

But it doesn’t really matter what anyone says, legally , logically - none of it fits the definition of genocide. You would have to prove that Israel is attacking the Palestinians in Gaza because they’re Palestinians with the intent to kill everyone. 

Simultaneously while the Palestinians in the West Bank are living lives as usual. I mean if Israel wanted to genocide the Palestinians? They could. They have nuclear weapons. Why aren’t they targeting the West Bank? Why aren’t they killing all the Palestinians ruthlessly ?! They’re in a war with the Palestinians in Gaza- but … millions of Palestinians live in the West Bank. Why not them too if they want to kill them all? It’s not like those Palestinians haven’t been attacking Jews - they shot a Jewish woman in labor on the way to the hospital killing her and her baby not too long ago. But that’s just what happens all the time. Another point in fact. 

Palestinians have been attacking Jews like this for decades. They shoot rockets every day at Israel and what other country would ever put up with that? If Israel wanted to- it could kill all of them, in a week. 


Just the fact that the Jews were so brutally attacked in a genocidal way ( that does meet the legal definition ) and responded to that attack and the mass hostage taking - it’s .. it’s really - hard for me to believe people struggle with this. 

It’s a dead end argument - it just doesn’t make any sense no matter which way you cut the cake.

Lopsided_Thing_9474

I would attempt to change your view by pointing out how unworkably overbroad your definition is. 

Your definition is as follows:

&gt;...Genocide means any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group ...

And some of the sub-parts are:

&gt;Killing members of the group.

So - killing members of a group, with the intent to destroy a part of that group, qualifies as genocide. 

The murder of just a couple would qualify under this definition, wouldn't it? If you were a racist murderer stalking the streets at night, and you killed a couple who were part of an ethnic group with the intent to destroy that part of the ethnic group (the couple) - wouldn't you be guilty of "genocide" under this definition? 

&gt;Causing serious bodily harm or mental harm to members of the group.

Building off of the hypothetical couple above: if you ran up to them on the street, and called them fat badger-licking toadstools because you genuinely thought this would cause them enough mental harm to commit suicide, wouldn't that qualify as "genocide" under the rule?

&gt;Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.

Let's say that a nation has a minority population within it. This minority is impoverished, uneducated, and tends to have high rates of teen pregnancies.

This nation imposes a new law on the minority communities - that there must be family planning centers offering free condoms within one mile of every high school serving them. The nation believes that by requiring these family planning centers, they will prevent some births within this minority community.

This would qualify as genocide under your definition, wouldn't it?

*(Edit: Changed the hypotheticals slightly to address criticisms that the definition says "members," plural - so it has to be at least two victims rather than one. And to make the condom distribution a direct imposition.)*

Finally, I would ask: Do you believe that *all* war is genocide? 

If not, can you identify a war that would not qualify as genocide under your definition?

The_Law_of_Pizza

I think the issue is that if you held other conflicts to the same standard then all of a sudden a whole bunch of wars are genocides (that previously were never considered such). So are you saying that is the case, or is the Israel/Palestine conflict getting categorized using different technicalities than other wars?

A lot of people saw reporting last year that everyone in Gaza is starving and on the verge of thousands upon thousands of people dying, and then go with that as evidence of Israel trying to kill off the population. But months after that reporting those thousands of starvation deaths that were about to happen never happened, even using Hamas' provided numbers.

There absolutely are people starving in Gaza and Israel has absolutely committed some horrific war crimes on innocent Palestinians (some systemic coming from leadership, some individual coming from soldiers exceeding their orders), but that is also true of many conflicts people did not call a genocide. So what makes this one different?

The5thElephant

If you’re using the ICJ court case to hinge a lot of your arguments on, why (maybe I didn’t see it) are you ignoring the the ICJ DIDNT rule it as genocide?

They ruled as “Plausible”, which means it’s a POSSIBILITY it could occur, but has yet to happen. 
Or maybe can be later proven to have occurred, but wasn’t proven in that case to determine as definitive genocide. 


Other than that,

&gt; The genocidal destruction of a group “in part” is established when the part targeted is “significant enough to have an impact on the group as a whole.”

You seem to be using the genocide convention very loosely, so much so that ALL WAR can be defined as genocide. 

All basic wars includes at least one group killing a lot of members of another group, every single time. That’s what makes it war and not a one off battle, because it’s large scale. 

So obviously simply that isn’t enough to claim genocide. You have to prove the killing was with Intent to specifically kill innocent people was the main goal and not just to fight in war. 


&gt; [23] It is hard to argue that the mass starvation, bombing, and displacement haven’t resulted in the whole of the Palestinian people being deeply affected. October 7th was horrific, but it doesn’t have to be unprovoked to become genocide. In fact, the UN’s definition makes clear that genocide can occur in the context of armed conflict

The Allies did all that, but much worse to the Germans in the world wars. 

Tell me if that was genocide. 

Ethnic cleansing: “Between 1944 and 1948, millions of people, including ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) and German citizens (Reichsdeutsche), were permanently or temporarily moved from Central and Eastern Europe. By 1950, about 12 million[7] Germans had fled or been expelled from east-central Europe into Allied-occupied Germany and Austria.” 
[source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950))

37k German civilians killed within 7 days: “As part of a sustained campaign of strategic bombing during World War II, the attack during the last *week* of July 1943, code named Operation Gomorrah, created one of the largest firestorms raised by the Royal Air Force and United States Army Air Forces in World War II,[2] killing an estimated 37,000 people in Hamburg,[3] wounding 180,000 more,[citation needed] and destroying 60% of the city's houses.[3]” [source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg_in_World_War_II)

25k German civilians killed within 2 DAYS: “The bombing of Dresden was a joint British and American aerial bombing attack on the city of Dresden, the capital of the German state of Saxony, during World War II. In four raids between *13 and 15 February* 1945, 772 heavy bombers of the Royal Air Force (RAF) and 527 of the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons[vague] of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city.[3] The bombing and the resulting firestorm destroyed more than 1,600 acres (6.5 km2) of the city centre.[4] Up to 25,000 people were killed.” [source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden)

Blockading aid and causing mass death by disease and famine on the Germans: “A large part of the German population suffered hunger during the war, and between 478,500 and 800,000 civilians died from diseases related to hunger and malnutrition.2 These deaths have traditionally been attributed to the “British hunger blockade”.3 However, it was not an exclusively British, but an Allied policy, executed by all the Allied navies, in which the Royal Navy had the predominant part.” [source](https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/naval-blockade-of-germany/)

dickermuffer

While I agree that atrocities are being committed against Palestinians and we should condemn those actions clearly and unequivocally, we also need to be consistent in how we apply terms like genocide. We cannot say that if side A commits violence, it is a reaction or resistance, but if side B does it, it’s genocide.

If we’re using the UN definition of genocide acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group then the Hamas-led attack on October 7th must also qualify. The deliberate killing of civilians, targeting of Jews, and repeated calls for Israel’s destruction were not just military acts they were acts of terror against Jews as a group, showing clear genocidal intent.

If that does not meet the threshold of genocidal intent, then we must question how consistently the term is being applied. Either we use this label based on objective legal criteria, or we risk reducing it to a political weapon, undermining its moral and legal gravity.

We should be condemning the both side and should not be showing any bias towards any side. If something is wrong, we should be saying it’s wrong

baptiser2

Hamas declared war on Isreal on october 7th. 

They have yet to surrender. 

Until they surrender its a war.

NugKnights

Do you believe that the residents of Gaza constitute a "national, ethnic, racial, or religious group?" What is your reason for this belief?

HadeanBlands

I would disagree with one of your statements on the top, that genocide carries legal risk. 


It largely doesn't. 


Just because the UN declares something is a genocide, this doesn't require the UN to actually do anything about it. 


Similarly, just because someone is charged with war crimes (of which genocide is one) that doesn't mean that they will be arrested or stand trial. Right now we are seeing that. 


Also, the security council can simply void any such declaration for diplomatic reasons or even no reason. 


It is morally relevant, it is politically relevant - but there actually is minimal legal liability here. 

TemperatureThese7909

What ethnicity is being targeted exactly, Muslim Arab? Plenty of Muslim Arabs live peacefully as citizens with full rights in Israel. Palestine was a mandate by the British and at the time Palestinian referred to Jews. Are you talking about the ‘Palestinians’ with Egyptian ancestry or Jordanian ancestry? Israel has peace relationships with both of those countries and plenty of citizens with that heritage who live peacefully inside of Israel. 

Do you have a hard time telling the difference between Hamas terrorists and civilians in the Gaza Strip? Are you discounting Hamas operations being specifically placed in schools and hospitals to maximize collateral damage and innocent casualties? Do you recognize that in spite of this and even according to Hamas’ (likely doctored) statistics that the civilian to combatant death ratio is the lowest in any war ever? Do you fail to recognize the subjugation and murder of civilians inside of the strip by Hamas for any remote dissent? Do you recognize any of the reporting showing Hamas stealing aid from its own civilians and profiting off of it? Is Israel committing a genocide when they partner with the US and other Arab countries like Egypt to deliver aid to citizens in a way that it won’t be stolen by Hamas by literally air dropping it to civilian areas and putting its own military at risk to protect aid corridors? Is any other country in the history of the world delivering aid to a country’s civilians who they are at war with? Do you ignore the Hamas charter which specifically states it wants to wipe all Jews/Israelis off the face of the earth? Is that not genocidal?

Are you also considering the persecution of Coptic Christians across Muslim countries a genocide? Are you considering the killings of Syrian Christian Druze by Julani a genocide? What about Ukrainians by Russians? Do you consider German civilian deaths in WW2 genocide? Do you recognize that war is horrible and that all civilian deaths while tragic don’t automatically mean it’s a genocide?

Do you also recognize that Israel has fully agreed to peace deals which would have immediately ended the war and only requires Hamas to release hostages and disarm, and that Hamas has multiple times walked away from these deals? Do you ignore the majority of the Arab league condemning Hamas and encouraging them to disarm and give up the hostages as well? Does this sound like genocide to you?

doublemctwist1260

Would you also consider the bombing of Dresden, or nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki to he genocide during World War II. In both of those instances the goal was to kill civilians or harm civilians in order decrease the moral of Germany and Japan, and coerce them into surrendering. Yet neither of these events are typically considered a genocide, since the goal was to win the war, not to kill everyone on the basis of being German or Japanese. 

  It's also unfair to compare a country the size of Germany or Japan, to a small strip of land the size of Rhode Island. Targeting an area where a group of people all live in one city is gonna cause higher casualties as a whole to the population compared to if they were spread out.

 The problem for Israel is that Hamas uses the people of Gaza as a shield, and hides among the civilian population with bases in public places like schools and hospitals. Israel's solution was to then disregard the civilians in order to potentially kill the terrorists. Was this strategy ethical? No. But it is not the same as bombing people just for being Palestinian. (Unless, Israel secretly funded Hamas and let them do all the damage in order to justify their attack.)

JJ_Redditer

You state "The IDF's destruction of Gaza has been so systematic and total that it can only be explained by an intent to destroy, in part, the population of Gaza based on their being Palestinian." You present this as if there is no reason for the conflict in gaza -- but the timeline suggests the destruction of Gaza was brought about by the Hamas invasion and massacre that occured on October 7th. After October 7th, Israel's government publicly committed to the destruction of the group that carried out the attacks, Hamas, which happens to be the governing body of Gaza. It seems easy to explain that the systematic and total destruction is a military coordination by Israel's army to target and destroy Hamas. There can still be an argument criticizing the amount of force, or the way they've conducted the military operation but I don't think either of us have the experience or expertise to have a deep conversation there. Supporting elements that Israel is targeting Hamas specifically would be many public statements made by Israeli military, efforts to coordinate the evacuation of civilians via flyers, making known military zones that are not safe for civilian travel, and the coordination with aid organizations in various instances to provide humanitarian aid like the us built port, WCK, or lately the GHF. 

  
You also state "The injured increasingly have nowhere to go, as Israel has targeted hospitals and healthcare facilities time and time again." Targeting civilian infrastructure is a commonplace critique of the way Israel has carried out the war, however we have intelligence that shows Hamas -- the group Israel has pledged to destroy -- uses hospital facilities to store weapons, and access tunnels. This is consistent with the stated goal of dismantling Hamas. ([Source 1](https://abcnews.go.com/International/us-intelligence-hamas-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-hold/story?id=104887035), [Source 2](https://nypost.com/2024/10/15/world-news/idf-raids-unrwa-clinic-in-gaza-used-to-store-hamas-weapons-officials-say/), [Source 3](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/01/22/den-of-antisemitism-hamas-held-israeli-hostages-in-unrwa-camps/))

call_me_fig

You spend a lot of time on actions, next to none on intent. You do point out certain Israeli actions that you use to imply intent, but outright ignore the known reasons for those actions. 

Hamas has deliberately embedded itself in civilian areas. It has built tunnel structures throughout. They place boobytraps in civilian homes to try and kill IDF soldiers when they go door to door.

The idea that Israel's actions are indicative of genocidal intent depends entirely upon the assumption that Hamas is fighting like any other army would. No civil country would do as Hamas does, which is outright illegal under the laws of armed conflict. 

If Hamas had surrendered a year ago, the war would have ended then. Had they not attacked in the first place, there wouldn't have been a war. Had they released all the hostages during the ceasefire 6 months ago, the ceasefire might have held for a while longer. 

That's not something you see with genocide.

I would instead suggest an alternate position. If non combatants die in a war as a result of one side not following the laws of armed conflict, then that is the side to blame. If one side is violating the laws of war deliberately, then that is a war crime. And if they are doing so precisely because they want to cause these mass casualties against members of a protected group, then it's genocide.

Hamas embedded themselves among civilians illegally. They took hostages illegally. They disguise themselves as civilians. They militarized schools, hospitals, and other protected facilities illegally. And based on their own public statements, they did so precisely because they want Gazans to die in large numbers in order to frame their deaths on Israel. 

From where I'm sitting, the genocide convention never stated that you cannot commit genocide against a group you yourself belong to.

JeruTz

If the goal is to eradicate the entirety of Palestinians, Israel is not meeting the definition. Outside of the obvious of them actively warning the populace whenever an operation is taking place and constant attempts to become the main distributor of supplies by trying to hand materials in person, they also possess two different bombs capable of sending the Gaza strip to dust, which would be faster and considerably cheaper than staying in war for 2 years. You can drive the length of the gaza strip in less than 40 minutes.

Also, you have to come up with a reason why 20% of Israel’s citizenship shares the same ethnic origin and yet is able to live and function as normal people and are not being tossed into the mix. I grew up with muslim Israelis and they can walk around and do crap like any other citizen in the country, what is their excuse?

TheZombieGod

Ex British Army officer here. I'm not Jewish, Israeli, Arab, Muslim or Palestinian, but I've spent several years living both in Israel and in the West Bank.

The Israeli-Arab war is likely the most media-driven and propaganda-ridden conflict in human history.

So it's no surprise to me that people throw around accusations such as genocide, massacres, and so on. These are usually intended to dramatize for the sake of political rallying, more than they are a description of reality.

If, say, we fast forward 500 years, and allow a historian to look over conflicts over history, there's no objective reason to believe that the war in Gaza would be considered a "genocide".

From a military point of view, Israel has killed far less civilians, both in sheer numbers and in proportion to combatants, than in any urban conflict we've seen in history. It's pretty clear that Israel goes to lengths beyond those I've seen in my own career at NATO when it comes to preventing civilian casualties, and there is also no doubt that Hamas, the PIJ, and these other terror organizations go to vast lengths to use civilian shields, just like we see with ISIS and the Taliban for example.

When you look at the genocide accusation (both online or at the ICJ), it's mainly based on comments taken out of context of radical Israeli politicians, and not based on anything really happening on the ground. Another part of the accusation was about aid not entering Gaza which turned out not to be real, and we haven't seen any form of famine in Gaza so far. Just an example.

If you look at this conflict objectively, compared to the other 53 ongoing armed conflicts in the world right now:

**Low casualty number**

If you see the list of [current ongoing armed conflicts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts), even if we take the highest death toll, there are currently 18 conflicts with higher cumulative deaths than the Israeli Palestinian one, in spite of the IP conflict being far older than most of these. Per year, the Israeli-Palestinain conflict comes in way lower than that.

**Civilian to Combatant death ratio**

Numbers provided during war are never accurate, but let us work with the numbers we have. On February 29, the Gaza authorities reported a total of [30,035](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war) Gazans dead. On the very same day, the Israel Defense Forces tallied the number of killed Hamas militants in Gaza at “[over 13,000](https://www.idf.il/%D7%90%D7%AA%D7%A8%D7%99-%D7%99%D7%97%D7%99%D7%93%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%9F-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%94/%D7%9B%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%A2%D7%93%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%93%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A8-%D7%A6%D7%94-%D7%9C/%D7%A2%D7%93%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%93%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A8-%D7%A6%D7%94%D7%9C-%D7%A6%D7%94-%D7%9C-%D7%AA%D7%90-%D7%9C-%D7%93%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%90%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%99-%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9D-%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%99-2902/).” (Multiple analyses – e.g. [here](https://www.wsj.com/articles/hamass-numbers-games-civilian-death-counts-casualty-data-b99140eb), [here](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers), and [here](https://honestreporting.com/media-ignore-quietly-revised-un-figures-of-hamas-reported-civilian-deaths/) – make the numbers released by the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry extremely hard to believe, but we’ll treat them as accurate anyway; and if, for argument’s sake, we believe Hamas, it behooves us to believe Israel too.)

In NATO we would study the Israeli Palestinian conflict as a golden standard of preventing civilian casualties, in the face of such a challenging Arena such as Gaza, and such an asymmetric enemy (Hamas uses of human shields, tunnels, targeting civilians, not fighting in uniform, etc).

There's no other army in the world that goes to these lengths, such as thousands of leaflets in arabic warning of attacks, evacuation corridors, roof knocking techniques, calling civilians on their mobile phones to warn them, such a high use of surgical ordnance, and what is the most advanced use of ISTAR known to man.

This is why Israel achieves a 1:1.1 ratio, instead of the 1:8 that you'd expect from an Urban environment such as Gaza (without even considering the use of human shield tactics by Hamas and the PIJ).

I'm here if you have any questions.

Conscious_Spray_5331

This is absolutely a waste of time, but I'll humour it. You wrote that Israel's actions can ONLY be understood if they have the intent to destroy all the Palestinians in Gaza for being Palestinian.

I'll turn it back on you. Assume you have a group that is very popular in a population, embedded deeply there, and is indistinguishable except for the very moment it is holding a weapon, and that uses that to its own advantage, and has set up possibly the most extensive tunnel system in the world underneath every area. And that group is holding your people  hostage in those tunnels. How would you destroy them militarily?

Going by your definition of Genocide, if my intent is ONLY to destroy this group, it isn't genocide (eg, I can wipe out Hamas, and that isn't a genocide).

You might argue that the price is too high to destroy this group, but that wouldn't turn their destruction into genocide, because genocide requires a specific intent.

Red_Canuck

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