Public sentiment towards India's defense procurement is characterized by skepticism and calls for reform. While some appreciate the push for self-reliance and informative discussions on military strategies, they express frustration about bureaucratic inefficiencies, corruption, and political influences impacting procurement processes. There is a demand for transparency and better strategic direction, merging a desire for improvement with discernible doubts about the current system's effectiveness.

Indian Government

Indian Armed Forces

Defense Suppliers

More people in India need to know about the Chandigarh lobby

Yatha0804

I haven't verified what you've said, but in general I'd say that as citizens we should never put any institution, be it the government, army, judiciary, etc. on some untouchable pedestal on account of a misplaced sense of patriotism.

At the end of the day, any institution is as good as the people that work there, and any person has the potential of being corruptible. That being said, we shouldn't have a bias in believing that everyone is corrupt, but at the same time we must keep an open mind &amp; scrutinize every bit of information that comes to us.

Regular-Good-6835

Let's file an RTI and seek government's response to why they rejected domestic good quality products in favour of foreign expensive ones

[deleted]

Don't forget about the infamous Delhi Lobby, Southern Command lobby, Mumbai Lobby, and Chandigarh lobby.

Ramdulari_ka_hubby

In terms of amount of money, the Army is at #1. Judiciary is a distant 2nd and no I haven't pulled this number out of thin air. I do know at least 5-6 army officers, they themselves admit it. Btw, in all the defense deals everyone gets a cut from minister to general to as low as the major of the army.

Fun-Tangerine2140

I blog on national security. I think the reality is more nuanced than saying \`Indian-made good, imported bad' - Therefore if we buy imported, Army is the most corrupt organization in India.

There are irregularities in defense. Its in the public domain, in the form of CAG reports on for e.g. CSD or ECHS - not unsubstantiated allegations that \`no one talks about'. There are Parliamentary reports on defense procurement. Certainly our system can and should improve, but we need to take into account ground reality.

We can avoid all corruption in defense hardware procurement by following the Russian or Chinese model, where everything is made by defense PSUs. Our experience with that was terrible. We had (by and large) bad products at inflated prices. If you rely only on 1 foreign country (USSR) we can suffer when there are geopolitical shifts. We are trying to get into a model of Indian PSU + Private sector, competing (and collaborating) with different International suppliers.  
More suppliers and market forces, reduces corruption more than hoping that an organization will have a different moral character than the rest of the country.

The reality of military hardware is that supply chains are very international. Our domestically  
products products have a high imported component. The Marut project suffered because we could not design and make a good engine locally - not can we for the Tejas.  
Our imported products have offsets where there is some domestic manufacturing which gives us both capability and export revenue (that's why our biggest customer for our defense exports is the US).

I don't see a problem in getting a small number of Apache with ordering a much larger number of Prachand. They have different roles. The Apache, being heavier is not meant for high altitude.  
It' had not \`crashed multiple times', it has been tested to see to what extent it can be used in high altitude. We'd rather know now than when a war starts.

Dean_46

yeah I lived my whole life in army camps it's is definitely corrupt to the bone

Broad-Cold-4729

Arjun tank - sand in engine/driving in reverse for 10 km?

Pilatus import - this was widely reported

IAC - aircraft lift sized to fit only one Russian aircraft

Kaveri engine - to this day still no test bed. Have to take it to Russia to test.

MMRCA/MRFA/Rafale - will do everything instead of investing locally. Will do only piecemeal orders and then complain about cost.

This list is endless.

spannerhorse

I’ve stopped following defence affairs and it has done wonders to my BP.

classicdecoy

Yup it is as corrupt as the bureaucracy and the government, and as inefficient as any Sarkar office. Bharat Karnad and Anit Mukherjee have elaborated on it, and the army people are as careerist as an average IAS

hermannbroch

 hey man just wanted to know to do the indian army really sexually assault the women of north Eastern villages

SensitiveCress9614

I heard defence and judicial are one of the most corrupt because of lack of accountability. Talking against them also takes effort and are not easily punishable. I don't know if you're referring to the same thing.

p_ke

Corruption is everywhere and in every country, the problem is not that people are corrupt, problem is there isn’t strict laws and punishments for corruption. The most punishment is getting suspended and transferred to different locations.  Unfortunately most laws were inherited from British era as it is in constitution as it was not possible to change every law after independence. This wasn’t done intentionally but it was just not possible to change what was running for 200 years. 

However Britishers did draft laws to destroy India, they had their own evil motive to draft such laws.

I have done business in various countries, even in china corruption is far less just due to strict laws and punishments.

akash_kava

Just read the "opinion" of that manmohan guy yesterday in the news article it was completely planted article by Chandigarh lobby.
Also top army brass is same. Highly corrupt and inefficient infiriority complex ridden.
Thinking everything imported maaal is great and every indian things is bad.
Just look at apache they didn't even do high altitude trial and crashed, and LCH trials are goig on for years and haven't been ordered yet.
The same case was with LCA.
Although parrikar saved it by showing off the airforce throat.

This readymade import good mentality wont go in distant future.
They argue that atmanirbharta should not be at the expense of national security.
We have been importing fighters for almost century and haven't been able to build force that can safeguard our national security yet.
Expensive 36 Rafael for $15 billion will never be able to safeguard our national security.
Only homegrown systems in mass numbers can.

Fascist-Reddit69

Have never checked anything abt this. I think it would be great to create a long, well researched post on the corruption with at least some citations. so that it is a comprehensive list of the corrupt goingons in the upper echelons.

evammist

While I agree with most things you said, I disagree on the buying Apache part.


Apache is designed for a different altitude warfare and is as lethal as any chopper could ever be.


It isn't designed for Himalayan altitudes.


While buying Apache's is a great move especially keeping our north-western neighbour in mind... it has nothing to do with buying lch's. Two different choppers of two different classes for two different purposes and conditions. Its an apples to oranges comparison.


But yeah with everything else I mostly agree.

Murky-Hand-4723

I'm really confused and can't see the video well. Can someone please explain to me what's happening 

TombLord

It really hurts me to see indians see this as a political issue. How heartless does one has to be; to be effectively complicit to the oppression 

May Allah help my brothers and sisters of Kashmir for they've been fighting oppression for almost 8 decades now.

And they cry when Kashmiris execute 50 of their invading soldiers. The more they repress the Muslims they more they resist until Kashmir becomes ungovernable for the invaders like Vietnam was for the French

Just so you know, OIC [has come out](https://www.dawn.com/news/1467200) the other day and condemned in the strongest terms the recent wave of Indian terrorism and brutalities in occupied Jammu &amp; Kashmir.

There is hope for the Ummah after all.

these are almost as same as palestine and no one is talking about this 

tgay8587348

I'm obviously sad, disappointed and angry of what I just saw (if this is real btw). However, I feel bad when I'm angry at someone. Therefore, instead of asking Allah SWT to punish them. I will instead pray for them, so that He may forgive them. I believe the Prophet SAW did the same thing. It makes me feel like a better muslim, and as a better person overall.

KebabIsGood

Disgraceful, muslim countries need to come together now more than anytime before, to provide a counterbalance for the increasingly aggressive India and China. 

Lets keep this sub on Islam rather than politics please

asskayir

I mean relatively… sure, but that’s like being the tallest midget, you are still short. Look at the cost overruns, delays and issues for their 2 carriers. Vikrant was nearly a decade late and it is still flying mig29ks.

khan9813

The navy has always been a bit more forward looking , owing to them being much more geopolitically conscious . That said after 2027 it's going to slow down too (aside from deliveries of existing programs ).The plan is a 175 ships by 2035 iirc maybe it's changed

CorneliusTheIdolator

The Indian navy has its hits and misses in procurement. 

The misses include pretty bad ones.. helicopters, minesweepers, submarines, more.  The hits can get pretty good - an indigenous submarine,  being able to fly an indigenous plane (prototype) off an indigenous carrier..

I don't see much point in debating comparison with other branches.

But it receives the lowest priority in funding  of the services.

Also, it has to take a long view, given that vessels last decades..

Finally, it is instructive that the navy has had it's own naval architects , design bureau.This provides a base of expertise.

https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=2146753

The navy also has tended to work iteratively

The air force and army do not have equivalent..

---

It has always been interesting to me that some commentators have pointed struggles of the US Navy in essentially herding new acquisition to the hollowing out of expertise in the US navy in design etc (which it used to have). I don't want to overblow it , but it's always an interesting topic to think of in the case of government services - retaining expertise in house vs keeping them current and up to speed as a core competency. The interplay of private and public .. [The contribution of nasa research and the  total system performance boondoggle (eg F35 vs F47 ip)  , suggest that it's not a uniquely maritime/naval topic but has some cross service/cross government applicability)

barath_s

Generally, speaking from an outsider's perspective, the Indian Navy seems to be the most savvy branch in navigating the pitfalls that plague all of the Indian Armed-Forces Procurement process for sure. We can debate as to why, but I think it's worth examining how they balance planning procurement goals while being conscious of the realities of what they may need to face. I think it's too oversimplified to say, for example, that they don't need to worry about the Pakistan Navy or the Chinese Navy being a credible threat as much in their backyard, the way the IAF needs to.

Single-Braincelled

I’d say it’s the most balanced but it still relays alot of Russian naval assets. And given the performance of the Russian Black Sea fleet, which mind you has more modern vessels, I’m a bit of a in the 50/50 camp. 

The Indian navy’s main competition believe it or not is the Chinese navy and they have been expanding very rapidly with a lot of modern and indigenous designs, minus their first two carriers and China has been expanding rapidly in the Indian Ocean as well.

PanzerKomadant

The Indian government should allow friendly foreign defense  companies to set up wholly owned subsidiaries in India. Indian control could be assured by use of "Special Security Agreements" (SSA)  similar to  those used in the US that require  companies be run under American law and by American citizens. Indian controlled  SSA companies would increase competition and reduce costs of defense contracts.

edged1

Shameless self-plug: I have [written about](https://np.reddit.com/r/IndiaSpeaks/comments/8cyp5p/thoughts_on_indias_broken_weapons_procurement/) the broken procurement system before, in case anyone is looking for a short summary.

IMO, that system is merely a symptom of deep-rooted problems within India's military setup. In the absence of strategic ambition and a credible existential threat to the country, the military has become a political plaything—intended more to make a "I haz a military too" statement, rather than a tool designed and built to serve Indian interests (whatever they might be). 

Further, there is [no strategic direction](https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/why-white-papers-matterthey-allow-a-state-to-craft-its-signals-carefully-india-should-take-a-leaf-from-chinas-book/lite/) from the civilian leadership (both the politicians and bureaucrats), and more importantly, there is no willingness to provide it. The bureaucrats are generalists who have no expertise in military matters, and are mostly interested in guarding their turf and enhancing their personal position at the expense of the rest of the machinery. Their thinking—when it comes out in the op-eds and books they write after retirement—comes across as uninspired and insipid [Examples: [1](https://www.dailyo.in/politics/the-spy-chronicles-asad-durrani-as-dulat-pakistan-isi-spies-terrorism/story/1/24485.html), [2](https://caravanmagazine.in/commentary/iran-sanctions-india-waiver-donald-trump-narendra-modi)]. 

Not that the military leadership is any better at thinking about warfighting. The [damp squib of a joint doctrine](https://thewire.in/government/joint-doctrine-indian-armed-forces-wholly-informational-hardly-doctrinal) does a stellar job at showcasing the intellectual bankruptcy in the higher echelons of the military. This, again, deprives the lower echelons of a strategic direction to work towards and leaves the services (and the individual arms therein) with narrow tactical goals that may or may not jive with the larger interest of the organisation. This inevitably leads to insular thinking and [turf battles](https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/02/indias-fighter-jet-procurement-saga-zooms-into-familiar-jumble.html). There's a running joke in certain circles that Indian generals would make great colonels or something like that, and it is largely because the playing field is heavily tilted towards tactical thinkers. 

This has real consequences and leaves the military unable to anticipate or plan for emerging security risks. For example, in 2001, the government set up a fledgling joint command at the Andaman &amp; Nicobar islands. It was the first tri-service command in independent India's history. It could have become the model from which the larger military leadership drew lessons, a template for tri-service integration elsewhere, as well as being the base from which India could project power in SE Asia. Instead, it has been languishing for a lack of capital assets (the Army and Air Force won't commit) and has been left to wither on the vine for 17 years. Now with China making deep inroads into the Indian Ocean, everyone is suddenly concerned about the security implications and is scrambling to react.

Another example is India's inability to build a homegrown arms industry. Let's take the case of the LCA. In reality the LCA isn't just one R&amp;D program; it is five or six massive programs rolled into one. Composite structures, jet engines, digital avionics, radars, and more. Each of which should have been researched, developed, and proven independently before being trialled all at once in a moonshot project. Had there been ongoing projects to develop a base level of competence in these technologies in the 1970s and 1980s, the nodal development agency would have entered the LCA program with a solid industrial and technical base and the technology risks would have been reduced. The technical ability was there, as was the money. What was missing was a brass that could look beyond immediate operational needs, think strategically in terms of building capabilities that would be required to fight a war twenty years into the future, and invest in acquiring them regardless of the impact on short-term squadron strength. Instead, they were happy to sit on their backsides and write "staff quality requirements" by looking at fancy brochures and chasing the latest toy available in the arms market. It's the same saga with the Arjun, the INSAS, and a dozen other R&amp;D initiatives. 

In this backdrop, what is reforming the procurement system alone going to do? To make the military a truly effective fighting force, the entire security set-up will have to be comprehensively overhauled. The process will have to start with crafting a national vision and a set of national goals, which can be translated into domestic/foreign policy/military objectives. Only after those objectives have been defined will the government be able to create a viable security policy, on the basis of which the military can be organised and structured. Procurement reforms, if any, will only be a tiny part of the equation. 


Bernard_Woolley

Indian procurement system is designed for one thing:to prevent corruption in deals.It is designed to avoid single vendor situations and uphold civilian control over procurement.It sounds bad,but every other concern,including even strategic comes secondary.Only way for India is to go the China way and produce their own systems.

kimjongunthegreat

This is a /r/credibledefense topic, at the very least

One reason indian procurement is so bad is because everyone expects it to be bad. 

Multiple stakeholders, each looking at their own narrow interests, no cohesive vision, no predictability etc.

Having a clear sense of military needs, based on doctrine and mission capacity, and a cohesive set of priorities will help. Longer term budgets will help. Clear requirements based on acquired and institutionalized proficiency and accountability will help. Greater professionalization (contracts, legal, project management) etc will help. Some sort of pro-active involvement (security briefing) for de-politicization and early involvement of audit/accountability for major programs will help. 

This does not solve the problem, nor is it easy to bring this in piecemeal.

I don't have the full solution...

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saucerwizard

Thameus

By not having an India :D

But really though, id fix it by not actually procuring anything. I dont think India can really handle a military right now, they need to focus on infrastructure and improving both their economy and having a good, long term foreign policy and a real plan.

Mr_Gibbys

The Indian Defence Acquisition Council has approved capital acquisition proposals worth ₹79,000 crore to enhance military capabilities.

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