Public sentiment exhibits a strong divide on the Russia-Ukraine conflict, with many expressing rejection of peace proposals seen as capitulatory to Russia. A significant number emphasize Ukraine's right to defend its sovereignty, feeling betrayed by any compromise that could embolden further aggression. While a segment of commenters celebrate Russian territorial gains, a larger group voices deep concern over the humanitarian implications and the legitimacy of Russian actions.

Ukraine

Russia

United States and NATO

Trump

From the article:

The plan, drafted without Ukraine’s knowledge, appears to be little short of a demand for capitulation.  The plan is aimed largely at curbing Ukraine’s military power once the war ends. It envisages a reduction in the number of Ukrainian troops to just 40% of the current level, with no corresponding cut on the Russian side. It would be barred from possessing several classes of weapons, including long-range systems capable of reaching Moscow and St Petersburg. No foreign troops would be allowed on Ukrainian soil. Planes used by foreign diplomats would be prohibited from flying to Ukraine, raising questions as to Russia’s intentions for Ukrainian airspace.

The demands are far-fetched. Ukraine’s forces have been battered on the battlefield lately, but Russia has not achieved a serious operational breakthrough since 2022. Military analysts do not see Ukraine’s position as being so desperate that Mr Zelensky would need to agree to such punishing terms.

It is not obvious what the aim of devising such a plan might be beyond embarrassing Mr Zelensky.

AlexandrTheTolerable

Apparently this is the 28 point plan. A Moscow wish list and Americans sinking to new lows.


1. Ukraine's sovereignty will be confirmed.

2. A comprehensive and comprehensive non-aggression agreement will be concluded between Russia, Ukraine and Europe. All ambiguities of the last 30 years will be considered settled.

3. It is expected that Russia will not invade neighbouring countries and NATO will not expand further.

4. A dialogue will be held between Russia and NATO, mediated by the United States, to resolve all security issues and create conditions for de-escalation in order to ensure global security and increase opportunities for cooperation and future economic development.

5. Ukraine will receive reliable security guarantees.

6. The size of the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be limited to 600,000 personnel.

7. Ukraine agrees to enshrine in its constitution that it will not join NATO, and NATO agrees to include in its statutes a provision that Ukraine will not be admitted in the future.

8. NATO agrees not to station troops in Ukraine.

9. European fighter jets will be stationed in Poland.

10. US guarantee:

▪️ The US will receive compensation for the guarantee.

▪️ If Ukraine invades Russia, it will lose the guarantee.

▪️ If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a decisive coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be reinstated, recognition of the new territory and all other benefits of this deal will be revoked.

▪️ If Ukraine launches a missile at Moscow or St. Petersburg without cause, the security guarantee will be deemed invalid.

11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will receive short-term preferential access to the European market while this issue is being considered.

12. A powerful global package of measures to rebuild Ukraine, including but not limited to:

a. The creation of a Ukraine Development Fund to invest in fast-growing industries, including technology, data centres, and artificial intelligence.

b. The United States will cooperate with Ukraine to jointly rebuild, develop, modernise, and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, including pipelines and storage facilities.

c. Joint efforts to rehabilitate war-affected areas for the restoration, reconstruction and modernisation of cities and residential areas.

d. Infrastructure development.

e. Extraction of minerals and natural resources.

f. The World Bank will develop a special financing package to accelerate these efforts.

13. Russia will be reintegrated into the global economy:

a. The lifting of sanctions will be discussed and agreed upon in stages and on a case-by-case basis.

b. The United States will enter into a long-term economic cooperation agreement for mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, artificial intelligence, data centres, rare earth metal extraction projects in the Arctic, and other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.

c. Russia will be invited to rejoin the G8.

14. Frozen funds will be used as follows:

$100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be invested in US-led efforts to rebuild and invest in Ukraine. The US will receive 50% of the profits from this venture. Europe will add $100 billion to increase the amount of investment available for Ukraine's reconstruction. Frozen European funds will be unfrozen. The remainder of the frozen Russian funds will be invested in a separate US-Russian investment vehicle that will implement joint projects in specific areas. This fund will be aimed at strengthening relations and increasing common interests to create a strong incentive not to return to conflict.

15. A joint American-Russian working group on security issues will be established to promote and ensure compliance with all provisions of this agreement.

16. Russia will enshrine in law its policy of non-aggression towards Europe and Ukraine.

17. The United States and Russia will agree to extend the validity of treaties on the non-proliferation and control of nuclear weapons, including the START I Treaty.

18. Ukraine agrees to be a non-nuclear state in accordance with the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

19. The Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant will be launched under the supervision of the IAEA, and the electricity produced will be distributed equally between Russia and Ukraine — 50:50.

20. Both countries undertake to implement educational programmes in schools and society aimed at promoting understanding and tolerance of different cultures and eliminating racism and prejudice:

a. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.

b. Both countries will agree to abolish all discriminatory measures and guarantee the rights of Ukrainian and Russian media and education.

c. All Nazi ideology and activities must be rejected and prohibited.

21. Territories:

a. Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk will be recognised as de facto Russian, including by the United States.

b. Kherson and Zaporizhzhia will be frozen along the line of contact, which will mean de facto recognition along the line of contact.

c. Russia will relinquish other agreed territories it controls outside the five regions.

d. Ukrainian forces will withdraw from the part of Donetsk Oblast that they currently control, and this withdrawal zone will be considered a neutral demilitarised buffer zone, internationally recognised as territory belonging to the Russian Federation. Russian forces will not enter this demilitarised zone.

22. After agreeing on future territorial arrangements, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply in the event of a breach of this commitment.

23. Russia will not prevent Ukraine from using the Dnieper River for commercial activities, and agreements will be reached on the free transport of grain across the Black Sea.

24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve outstanding issues:

a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on an ‘all for all’ basis.

b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children.

c. A family reunification programme will be implemented.

d. Measures will be taken to alleviate the suffering of the victims of the conflict.

25. Ukraine will hold elections in 100 days.

26. All parties involved in this conflict will receive full amnesty for their actions during the war and agree not to make any claims or consider any complaints in the future.

27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by the Peace Council, headed by President Donald J. Trump. Sanctions will be imposed for violations.

28. Once all parties agree to this memorandum, the ceasefire will take effect immediately after both sides retreat to agreed points to begin implementation of the agreement.

Creativezx

Explain me like I’m 5yo. How russian proposal enact law to not invade Ukraine should work if according to their laws they didn’t invade Ukraine? And all these bombing of kindergarten and massacres spike in Bucha and Izum are just a “special military operation”

inokentii

This plan is meaningless and will be rejected one way or another. The fact that you still don’t hear curses from the Ukrainian authorities about it is because they are controlling their emotions, aware that this is an attempt by Trump to portray Ukraine as the side unwilling to make peace. Although it is obvious to everyone that such a 'peace plan' is actually capitulation, and that is unacceptable.

_Avocado_public_hair

Trump will change his mind tomorrow. As said by Stephen Colbert. Trump is the world’s most dangerous toddler.

TallExplanation1587

Didn't Trump say that he '*understood the conflict now*', and said Ukraine should take everything back? The consistency is... lacking.

squirtcow

This plan very CLEARLY paints future relationships between USA and Europe.


And how USA sees future world order.


I would say this plan is the END of TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE.


The NATO is no more. As USA is interested is promoting it's relationships with Russia at cost of NATO alliance. 


The fact that one of points is 




3. "It is expected that Russia will not invade neighbouring countries and NATO will not expand further."


Another point is a direct extortion from Europe.

    14. Frozen funds will be used as follows: $100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be invested in US-led efforts to rebuild and invest in Ukraine. The US will receive 50% of the profits from this venture. Europe will add $100 billion to increase the amount of investment available for Ukraine’s reconstruction. The remainder of the frozen Russian funds will be invested in a separate US-Russian investment vehicle that will implement joint projects in specifi
c areas. 


USA gets 100bln from frozen assets(frozen where?) and keeps 50%


Europe PAYS 100bln.

grafknives

Yet another reminder that America is no longer a friend and ally of Europe.

We're on our own, and will most likely be for the foreseeable future. Gotta get our shit together.

Nisiom

If you take a look at the financial side of it, it becomes clear: this is about punishing EU for the Russian Invasion. 

100 billion in frozen Russian assets in US: 50% to Ukraine, 50% to US. EU gets to 'double that' with a 100 billion 'contribution', with again 50% going to the US.

US gets to pull infinite money out of Ukraine and EU gets to foot the bill.

Finwolven

I feel like Ukraine should just make an absurdly maximalist proposal of their own: Russia hands back all territories plus a buffer zone carved from Russian territory. All reparations paid. All kidnapped children returned. Putin removed from power and handed to The Hague. Nuremberg-style war crime trials. Partial demilitarization of Russia.

If Russia can start with "everything we could ever want" as their proposal, why shouldn't Ukraine? Meeting in the middle makes much more sense that way.

jailbreak

That's just Russia's demands again, this peace deal is just trying to strong arm Ukraine into unconditional surrender. The previous guarantees didn't stop Russia invading 3 years ago, punishing the victim is wild (until you remember Trump is both a predator and a Putin puppet), and having peace talks without one side at the table, especially when it's the victim, is just bonkers...

But Trump does what his boss says...

Realistic_Let3239

Is this the third or fourth attempt to pressure Ukraine into a shitty deal? Just a month ago Trump stated the Ukraine should and could take back all lost territory. Then he wanted to supply tomahawks - but actually not. He’s an imbecile.

Radicularia

Let’s be real. This isn’t a serious plan.

This is obviously unacceptable to Ukraine, and when Zelensky says ‘no thanks’ because that is the only viable option, Drumpf can say ‘see! Ukraine doesn’t want to end the war!’ So the US can pull all funding and weaponry.

Trump is a Russian asset. Has been since day1. 

The only thing we can do, is pressure our European leaders to step the fuck up, grow a fucking spine and tell our people ‘this is going to be hard, but a future where Russia acts with impunity will be harder’ and move without the US. More funding, weapons, shooting down ANYTHING Russian that violates Ukrainian airspace. 

Russia was a paper tiger even before the war started. They’re dragging rapists out of prison and North Korean slaves to the front because they’re so short of manpower, and preparing tanks from world war 2 because they’re so short of vehicles.

Europe can defeat them easily, if we actually had any politicians with any courage to act decisively.

Background-Ninja-763

Magnificent_luck

handing over weapons for peace didn’t work out great last time

Jealous_Crazy9143

President Zelenskyy will pretend to agree, insert some corrections and russia won't accept it.

GreenEyeOfADemon

It’s a plan for Kremlin employee to make his boss proud and for the employee to get real estate deals again

Nothing more

mariuszmie

Any peace plan without requiring putin to hang in the Hague cannot be taken seriously.

Basic-Still-7441

Ending the Ukraine war is trivial.


1. Put the borders back to pre-war locations.
2. Grant Russia 100% ownership of the United States of America.


I can almost guarantee Putin would take this deal in a heartbeat. 

dgkimpton

Putin's wet dream. I've never seen such capitulation in my lifetime. Trump is pure scum

FreedumbHS

We can be thankful it's not 1943. Trump would make peace with both Germany and Japan, and call it the best deal ever for the world and for the 'Merica.

Only-Book-64

This American administration is such a joke, and what makes it even more pathetic is that we europeans are so weak.

Swanky-Pants098

Atskitakesson

It's a big chunk of s*it, designed to: 

1.Put pressure on Ukraine, to get full surrender and basically all of Russia's demands after they lost the "first Ukrainian war" (the, attempt to take the whole country in the beginning months of the conflict). Trump will get money and/or be secure from some potential dirt Putin has on him. Putin gets his "victory" that he can sell in the domestic market, and time and cash to prepare for a new invasion a few years in the future, for any BS excuse, against a much weaker defense. 


2.If they don't accept it, provide justification for Putin to continue the war indefinitely, which, absent a surrender like option 1, is really good for him and keeps his power (and life) intact.

3.Demoralize and weaken Europe.

throwawaythatfast

The best chance for peace is to remove Trump and put the US presidency under more stable control

Hellstorm901

Burgler (Russia) breaks into house. Hey don't do that, but ok you can keep the stuff! Next time they leave the door open but don't break in! Promised?

krisluc

Going in circles, because Trump is a demented old man who can't remember what he said yesterday, and half his advisors are on the Russian payroll.

GnaeusQuintus

If you give time russian to *rest* soon Europe will collect money to defense Poland, Moldova and try come back Latvia, Litva and Estonia from russian ocupation 😭

Strange-Thanks-44

This deal should get as much consideration as Trump gives the Constitution: none.

Undernown

I was actualy in shock to see that a convict with 6 failed business including a casino would make such stupid proposals.

ProfetF9

kfijatass

I think this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. This means only, that we have to cut every gas and oil import from Russia and pull all stops from arming Ukraine and ourselves. Then continue fostering renevable energy at home Europe and relationships that are best for us europeans. As sad as it is, US is toying us europeans... 

And while we're at it, Russia and US might be expected to blame us for nazism/fascismo for being patriotic, for being pro-eu or pro-homeland. Don't listen to them. We know best what is good for us. And we have to take care of Ukraine.

Thrownhighwayman

Russia back in the G8?

The G7 has been criticised as a waste of time and money for years, them being back will the be final nail in the coffin.

diacewrb

Just read it. There is absolutely no chance of this being accepted and I don't even think Witkoff is quite that incompetent that he would imagine this would be accepted. The deal also includes a lot of obligations to EU which obviously Ukraine is literally unable to accept. 

Basically it's a proposal that Russia gets almost everything they want and EU gives a lot of money to USA.

jaaval

Important-Cry-4433

Maybe turn G8 with Russia into G2 and all normal countries form a G6.

Own-Science7948

Proposals are all nice and whatnot, but for them to work, you need to have rational countries. There is nothing rational about russia, it's a shithole with a gas station.

BudgetPhallus

This is an absolutely terrible deal. Russia gets everything they want. 

I would love to know what Putin has on Trump that such sway is held over him

Reintegration in to the world economy and joining the G8 is a spit in the face.

ShezSteel

This is why we all need to vote these fks out of office instead of staying home and doing nothing.

Muneco803

It should be mentioned that this plan is a huge danger to Europe and future of NATO (eg bullet 4 or bullet 6)… This just opens doors for Russia to try to renew its power sphere over Baltics, Eastern and Central Europe - remember their demands to remove NATO soldiers from countries which weren’t in NATO by 1997…
Not to mention the horrendous economical articles or the one about forgetting Russians war crimes.

If EU / European countries accept this plan, we are truly only a doormat for US and barbaric underdeveloped Russia. And I am afraid it will happen because no European leader has any will or courage to do something about it… they are able only of empty phrases and being “horrified”…

meda2207

Trump is so evil, doing in Ukraine like this. It's the most hateful foreign affairs actions he has done. My heart goes out to Ukraine. What can we do?

Sure_Ad_1012

Putin's puppet and Putin come with a peace plan for Ukraine 😂😂😂😂 the jokes we get to hear these days

PrincipleHot9859

If they change it a little bit with strong security guarantees then why not?
We’re tired of this war and fake smiles from everyone.

Particular-Award5225

This is ridiculous. For more than three Europe does not get its act together and now they make a surprised pikachu face that nobody is taking them seriously. Time for Ukraine to develop nukes or some other kind of weapon of mass destruction.

NeighborhoodFit3847

I don't get it, why everyone so eager to talk about this capitulation plan, like it somehow different from bunch of previous such papers, non of which saw light of a day in the end?

OlesDrow

Ukraine is steadily losing on the ground. The U.S. doesn’t want to be involved much longer. European countries say they support Ukraine but are really dragging their feet now to help funding next year’s war needs. 

Unless the situation the battlefield changes somewhat dramatically, the longer Ukraine waits, the worse deal it will get. 

This particular proposal sounds like the proposal to resettle people from Gaza to third countries, quite outrageous but sets the tone; and when a lighter version will be announced, it will seem more reasonable and start garner more support.

alkbch

Jey3349

This is unacceptable for ukraine and for the eu. Means total surrendering, if there are no hard security guarantees and limitation of the armed forces in 2/3 years once russia rearms itself ukraine will cease to exist and european security will be at a higher risk than it is now.

I mean this also send a terrible message for the US asian allies. How confident are they now of US support in case of a shooting war with a major superpower?

Electrical_Crew7195

American administration clueless..... God how far america has fallen

Adventurous_Hand3705

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/nov/21/europe-latest-news-russia-ukraine-war-updates-zelenskyy-putin-g20

&gt;The third point of the 28-point plan reads: “It is expected that Russia will not invade neighbouring countries and Nato will not expand further.”

&gt;“It is expected” is a clunky passive construction in English. The Russian version – ожидается or ozhidayetsya – makes more sense and is a familiar verb form.

&gt;Other Russianisms that appear to have crept into the text include неоднозначности (ambiguities) and “закрепить” (to enshrine).

 12:32 CET

You can thank Luke Harding from the Guardian for figuring it out.

KernunQc7

Holy fck this is absurd. USA can go fck himself, Europe need to step in and show Russia the way out. That disgusting rotting country should be isolated not welcomed back regardless of peace deal. This is unacceptable.

Quasarrion

Russia could be the first country to lose a War, yet still win.

Figueroa_Chill

One issue I keep seeing people gloss over is Ukraines manpower issues. Realistically the longer the war goes on the more Ukraine is going to struggle to keep their lines manned. Their facing a desertion crisis, I don't see how Ukraine can win without biting the bullet and drafting men all of its of age men or consider drafting women.

historybo

A plan concocted between master and servant. I can think of no good reason that Ukraine or any of its non-American allies would accept this plan.

Its DOA. We can call this plan the **Putin Trump gaslighting plan**.

It really only has one goal, to help Trump steer the many negative narratives ongoing against him in America somewhere else.

lifeisahighway2023

This sounds like a proposal that Putin and Trump drew up in their free time

Puzzleheaded_Oil_768

Isn't this just more of the same? The idea they should just give up something? Then trump will be called taco, Putin does something blatant again, trump's ego then gets hurt, Putin somehow sends a message to get back in line and then another plan in Putin's favour gets drafted.

AlgaeDonut

A deal with a country being invaded without that said country in the negotiated 😂😂.

This is the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, maybe ever

SomeFood1000

skilliau

Central Europe wouldn't accept a deal over Ukraine's head even with previous US administrations. How do you think this is going to go down with Trump administration, huh?

rimbooreddit

Im not sure if it was included in this article since i cant read it due to being behind a pay wall but from what the Trump administration had said in other articles related to this matter is that this deal is considered live AKA fluid, and not set in stone. Since the Russians were the first ones to talk with the Americans, my guess is this is their so-called wishlist and it also indicates that the Trump administration really doesn't care who gets what, as Rubio said in an earlier statement, and just want out of this conflict.

Ok_Situation_7081

doha agreement 2 - never forget afghanistan

  
BUT also this is probably another nothing ever happens proposal that will be rejected by ukraine (rightfully) and russia will find some reason to just "walk away" like they have every other time, why does trump keep getting played like this?

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The Donbass has been shelled for 8 years and Ukraine doesn't want to fix it. They have countless Banderite/nazi brigades who actively want war. I made a list here: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ap5bLWsxsQrqDgU690hAQOw\_-DXUL8Rs-M4QArIsCiA/edit?tab=t.0](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ap5bLWsxsQrqDgU690hAQOw_-DXUL8Rs-M4QArIsCiA/edit?tab=t.0)

Russia cucked itself with the Minsk Agreements for 8 years, till Ukraine ramped up shelling in February 2022 in preperation for an invasion. Point is, the west have financial capitalists that shape countries to their will by funding NGOs, Russia does not have an incentive to start a war over money. The war in Ukraine was something the liberal elites wanted to avoid, it was pushed by the communist party.

\&gt; a very strong far-right movement,

disagree, it's uncomparable.

\&gt;number of rights abuses by both sides, but as far as I've read, pro-Russia forces have committed more

Maidan Massacre: 100+ Odessa Massacre: 46 Shootdown of Mh-17: 298 Bucha Massacre: 73+ Mariupol Drama theatre explosion: up to 600 Crocus City hall: 145 Donetsk Strike (2024): 27 dead

All done by Ukraine/ Pro-Ukraine forces

FamousPlan101

&gt;But it has also appealed to denazification; which I don't get either.

After the coup d'état of 2014, the regime in Kiev is continuously oppressing the Russian-speaking people of Ukraine, banning the Russian language, which about a half of the Ukrainian people had, from the official use: it was used in education, media and entertainment, also in court; the recent laws ban all of that effectively, and some local rules ban the use of the Russian language even unofficially like, during the school breaks.

Also the number of [the memorials to the Nazi collaborators](https://forward.com/news/462916/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-ukraine/) is still increasing after the USSR dissolution, and the Soviet memorials are teared down.

  
By the way, this sub has quite a list to add to that (all of the links I just copied from the hint below the editbox), no Russian sources:

BBC Newsnight: Neo-Nazi threat in new Ukraine: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY)

BBC News witnesses "surrender" in Sloviansk: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3deOG3AtCF4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3deOG3AtCF4)

CNN DONETSK CITIZENS CRIPPLED BY WAR: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fsMqYqHnN0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fsMqYqHnN0)

dair_spb

People are confused, they link modern day russia to the imperial russia/soviet union a birth place of a socialist revolution and a challanger to the american capitalist imperialism. It is romantic hallucination, modern day russia is much more closley aligned to the ideology of fascism and national socialism than that of soviet union and the socialist revolutionaries. It is tragic to see socialist siding with actual modern day fascists.

Random4062

Up until recently I would have said that the correct position was for us socialists to refuse to side with either bourgeois state in this war.  I would say that unequivocally that Ukraine has a right to democratic self determination, as do the "breakaway Republican" in the East which voted to leave Ukraine and potentially join Russia.  I would have said that Putin was wrong to invade Ukraine and that the US and NATO were wrong to antagonize Russia via Ukraine.   I sense that this is the most popular stance among socialists.  To an outsider this LOONS like support for Russia because in order to go by this stance you need to argue that the US should not be sending arms to Ukraine and that we should not support the Ukrainian government.

A few arguments recently have made me wonder if Russia was indeed justified in invading Ukraine.  The first is that Ukraine was behaving viciously, perhaps even genocidally, toward ethnic Russian populations in their East, with use of chemical weapons, bombardments, military repression, and terrorizing the civilian population in response to these eastern regions exercising their right to vote to break away.  The second was the argument that Russia had serious reason to believe that the western bloc seriously were considering using Ukraine as a launching point toward an actual attack on Russia.  Am I completely convinced that the Russians are the "good guys" in this situation?  No.  But I don't think things are as black and white as it seems on the surface

JadeHarley0

I don't support any bourgeoisie government (Rus/Ukr) or coalition of bourgeoisie governments (NATO) in imperialist aggression. I support the working class, everywhere, in resistance to and overcoming of imperialist aggression.

catsarepoetry

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your arguments for Russian actions and goals being imperialist are as follows;


Using an implausible justification for invasion. Has a right wing population group. Commit war crimes. 


Have i missed any(thing)? (This is a genuine question)

Velifax

Russia cited the Monroe Doctrine as to why they are at war with Ukraine

Affectionate-Club-46

Glazing Putin advances socialism in the west how..??? If you’re gonna say Bucha and the shot down passenger planes are all Ukraine, please send an invoice to the GRU for a few hundred rubles. Otherwise it’s just embarrassing to post this crap for free.

Minute_Spot_5564

As an American, I just want the USA to lose.

The USA has been at war for all but [17 years of its entire existence.](https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/usa-only-17-years-of-peace.html)  The USA has been the aggressor in most of those conflicts, but it has an excellent narrative control system, including Hollywood, that covers up those aggressions and makes it appear as if the nation being attacked, was the first to take action.

The war in the Pacific is an example.  During the lead up to WWII and the attack on Pearl Harbor, the US had inflicted [severe economic sanctions on Japan.](https://www.independent.org/article/2006/05/01/how-u-s-economic-warfare-provoked-japans-attack-on-pearl-harbor/)  I do not deny that Japan was taking aggressive actions against China and Korea, but it isn't clear (to me) that this was a result of US restrictions on obtaining the resources needed for Industrialization.  The actions taken by the US now in its "pivot to Asia" (China) are similar.  China (and Russia) have been forced to develop their military muscle because of the threat posed by the USA.

It is somewhat challenging to explain that the "threat" is actually not from the "USA" but from the group that controls the political/economic life of America.  [Aaron Good's series on "Empire and the Deep State" examines who these people are.](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1cV5YStGRA0NOiZc0sNeW0jG5tcWhi7o)  Good's "American Exception" YouTube channel and his writing on Patreon expand on this even more.  We are talking about what I call the "Anglo-American Oligarghy".  Pundits such as Alex Krainer and Alexander Mercouris explain that these Oligarchs are based in the City of London and Wall Street.  They are the "money-men" who actually choose who is going to be President of the USA.

The Oligarchy is not a single homogenous group of Billionaires.  They will make deals with one another or betray one another any time they can take advantage of the situation to improve their wealth or their positions of power and prestige.   Some of these are the people who fund AIPAC which Thomas Massie has pointed out, has complete control over the US Congress.  It is why Israel appears to be the tail that wags the dog.  However, in no way does the Anglo-American Oligarchy consist solely of Billionaire Jews (although George Soros and Miriam Adelson might give you that impression.)

The Oligarchy has a close relationship with Organized Crime.  Harry Truman gave Meyer Lansky, one of the founders of Murder Incorporated, a Medal of Freedom in a secret White House ceremony.

When Kennedy (JFK) sought to seek closer, peaceful, ties with Latin America through the Alliance for Progress, and he was threatening to shut down the Vietnam war, members of the Oligarchy had him killed.

NATO was founded because the Oligarchy needed a way to threaten Russia and to control Europe.  There's a quote about how "NATO was formed to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and Germany down."  Only in hind sight does the true objective become clear.  The Anglo-American Oligarchy was pursuing Empire and Global Hegemony.  The Warsaw Pact was formed in response to the threats from the USA.  In Ukraine, before the end of WWII, the OSS was organizing the Banderites (the Nazis Putin wants to remove) to set up partisan (terrorist) operations to attack Soviet troops.  This actually lasted until 1953.

When the USSR fell, there was a true opportunity for Peace to break out.  But the Anglo-American Oligarchy did not want Peace.  Rather they formed PNAC which insisted that now the US could take over the entire planet in the name of "Peace".  PNAC then announced the US needed a "New Pearl Harbor" in order to motivate Americans to support their pursuit of Empire.  9/11 was not some terrorist plot no one could have predicted, [Former FBI agent Sibel Edmonds describes how the USA founded and financed al Qaeda.](https://www.patreon.com/posts/tucker-carlsons-140112814)

[Michael Hudson explains in this video how the US pursuit of Empire has to be funded by stealing the wealth created by American Labor.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VCsf_sKKXs&amp;)  His research dates back to the 1960's.  Since the US lost the Vietnam war the Oligarchy was forced to take a short hiatus in the overt pursuit of war, but it did manage to get Ronald Reagan elected governor of California who was famous for raising tuition fees through out California.  He did not want Young People preventing the Oligarchy from being able to take war anywhere in the world.

Since Reagan, the Oligarchy has inflicted ever more pain on American Citizens.  Stealing their wealth by engineering recessions every 4 to 7 years (as often reported by Prof Richard Wolff).  The S&amp;L crisis, the dotcom bubble and the mortgage crisis of 2008 all happened because members of the Oligarchy wanted them to happen.  Contrast this with the fact that China's last recession was in 1979.  China executes its fraudulent Billionaires.  The USA, puts them in prisons with golf courses, like Michael Milken.  They serve a few years; get a Presidential Pardon; and they get to keep the wealth they stole.

I'm not saying there is no corruption in Russia or China.  I'm sure there is.  But it seems to be under control.  China's GDP is growing at 5%/year for several decades.  If you look at the "Inside China Business" youTube channel, you'll see a new report nearly every day about technical or scientific or economic advances that China has made.  China has one foreign military outpost, which interestingly is on the Red Sea and is shared with a US outpost.  The USA has over 800 bases around the world.  Which nation do you think is the greatest threat to world peace?

[All wars are bankers wars.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrKf9nYeXT0&amp;)

Listen2Wolff

Because the US is bad.

That’s the honest and the main reason. 

A lot of people can’t comprehend the fact that the most influential powers on the planet are thugs who pursue their own interests and not bound by any principle.

WW3_doomer

I've read many comments here that had some very straight pro-russian narative which at times doesn't make sense. So as were are trying to figure out who is the 'right' one in this war, you should ask what happened that it all started and what were the reasons. This is not about what happened in 2022 but what's been going since 2014. The main reasons known to us.


It is a common knowledge that Ukraine gave up its unclear arsenal long before this and got the security guarantees from Russia a few other countries. Remember, this happened long before 2014, but as we are seeing now, nuclear weapons are the thing that keeps countries security in tact since it pushes all the others away from even having a thought about attacking or overtaking them. 


It is important to know right before we had Zelensky or Poroshenko who were the first real leaders after the Euromaidan. Before all this, there was a Yanukovich guy which was heavily pro russian and after destabilization in the country, he fled to Russia. And this destabilization lead to Russia taking the Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk. Now keep in mind the chronology here since this is right before 2015. So Ukraine was under a pro-russian leader for quite some time and everything was fine and the Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk wanted and happily lived in Ukraine. There were not once a squel or something from them that something was wrong and that they wanted to be in Russia. There was plenty of time for this and this wouldnt have even been a problem since two leaders of Russia and Ukraine couldve solved this. But imagine, just as the Yanukovich leaves, the country falls in chaos and suddenly the certain parts of it decide to disconnect by their own will from Ukraine. And those regions later get listed in Russias constitution. Like what even is this shit? But okay, lets call this LEGIT and go next.


As mentioned before, there are a few reasons known of why the war started in 2022:


- '8 years of bombing the children'. In my mind, total nonsense. It was stated many times that something was happening in there and a war was  going, we even had Minsk agreements for this since BOTH were participating in bombing,attacking each other but not on a large scale like now. They both were doing it so it makes no sense to put blame on Ukraine since it wasn't a one sided attack. For those who believe this non-sense, stop for a second and think if ukraine could even take on attacking Russia and taking it down solo. Its impossible for them, so it wouldnt make sense at all. Although giving it back to them isnt a sign of attack but more of a resiliance. For the other reasons, if it was really happening, those reagions wouldve been under constant shelling and destruction which of course wasnt present there. You might be asking, why it even happened, simple - Ukraine believes those regions were taken from them unfairly and its normal to believe so. On the other hand, if there was this large of an attack on those regions, WHERE was Russia at that time? If they knew that there was constant bombing happening, why didnt they do anything and after 8 years of constant bombing they decided to jump in.


- Ukrainians are nazis. So first we believed that the war happened because of Ukraine attacking those regions which joined Russia and then there was a narrative spoken out by the Russian where they state that Zelensky is a nazi, narco etc.etc. Zelensky came to the power in 2019 which was long after 2014. Any nazi groups or whatever we call them were long before him and even at the time when Ukraine had pro-russian leaders, nazi groups existed and same was happening in Russia. And all of a sudden, they try to create this narrative that Ukrainians are nazis when they clearly didnt give a fk about it when it started. So the illusion is created just to illustrate them as enemies and because Russia takes all the pride for winning WW2, they call fights and killing of nazis gloriuous. 


- Lets get one fact straight - there was never call from the government to absolutely remove Russian language and attack the russian speaking people. Its a complete bs.


- Talks about joining NATO became super relevent only when the war started because it was long believed that Ruzzia wont stop and take other regions one way or another. In fact, Russia wanted less NATO, but in the final they got more since Finland and Sweeden joined. Somehow because Finland wanted to join the alliance didnt force the attack from Russia, but apparently Ukraines ask to join it all of a sudden made a large war.


-  So after the war was announced, Russia wanted to seize all the Ukraine and found it hard to do. Later - they changed their goals so only take some teritory, and the plans changed, changed and changed so many times that it is crazy. They found themselves in a deep hole which they cannot escape and stopping the war would mean a disaster for Putin. There was even a proposal for peace coming from Russia to Ukraine in the past year, under Russians conditions. So if you really believe the nazi or the bombing narratives you may ask yourself - why would anyone do peace with the nazis. Its not like russia wants to 'save peoples lives' because they wanted, the war wouldnt have started. So you've already guessed it. The war isnt about saving the russians or killing/overtaking the nazi regime. Its about gaining teritories which is purely imperialistic. 

Agile_Chicken_395

There are arguments you can accept regarding Ukrainian fault and that should definitely give you a more critical insight before jumping on the west bandwagon of supporting Ukraine. 

Russia, and Putin in particular, have proven not to be acting in good faith. Neither side is acting with the best interest of their population or the world stage in mind. I think what this sub mainly is trying to say is a Russian victory may be better, but I don't think this should mean standing with Russian as much as it should recognize the futile nature of the situation.

No_Honeydew9251

About the human rights part, as far as you've read from Pro UA (which is basically most of the internet). I am mostly pro russia because I like Russia and I see a lot of dehumanization being done by the pro UA, geopolitics wise I think Russia was in the right.

Boring-Pollution-925

Well, they would say:

I can't speak for the much of Russia's allies, or political agents across nations, but from the left, who are not a fan of Ukraine, it's usually from an almost pathological desire to say NATO is an imperialist war machine, therefore anyone that opposes them must be the good guys, as NATO nationals are, while not actually letting Ukraine Join, support NATO. Though with the way America is going, that could change.


Alternatively, victims of fake news, and russian propaganda.


At the end of the day, what ever my opinions on the morality of NATO as an an institution, Russia has invaded Ukraine, because if they wait, they might not be able to successfully invade Ukraine. That's it. They want Ukraine to be Russia, it's as simple as that.

And unfortunately, alot of people, especially on the Left, who have good reason to be suspicious of NATOs motives, are, in my opinion, a little too eager to see anyone who opposed NATO expansion, as good, even if the way they are stopping NATO expansion is by conquering another sovereign country who previously disarmed nuclear weapons as a good will gesture to said conquer in return for a commitment of peace.

My biggest problem with NATO is the over reliance of America, America possibly planning on invading other NATO members, and a belief they won't have our backs anyway, and the moral inconsistency of the execution of power that NATO provides.

All of which can be reformed, and are not served by Russia launching a land grab.

Dawningrider

Some people end up being leftists just because they think it's contrarian, then they pick the aggressors and oppressors just because it's anti US or anti West

Gobbling up imperialist propaganda to own the libs I guess

Blue2194

Because people are really stupid. They only support Russia because they want to be edgy, or that they hate the West and/ or the us.

appelsinjuiceogkaffe

Cuz they are not too bright individuals who have this romentasized view of Russian culture that it's cool and Strong and they lack the capability to internalize what the Russians are doing what it means that inocent people are dying and what it means to live in a oppressive dictatorship.

the_TIGEEER

You idiot Putin supporters make socialists seem abominable. Putin is an authoritarian far-right anti-socialist genocidal imperialist who wants to bring back 19th century Russian Empire's borders by any means necessary. 

This has nothing to do with socialism. You idiots are driving people away from socialism by this Putin support crusade. 

Why do you love that evil man so much?

zai_zai_

Trilllen

Because we know the history, and you do not.

MarionADelgado

By using advanced mental gymnastics to justify classic imperilalism.

ExileZerik

An unfortunate amount of Russian Trolling and an automatic gut reaction of supporting the opposite of what the West/US/NATO supports along with misguided nostalgia for the USSR (even though the USSR was Ukraine for a good amount of time).

Svedgard

DistillateMedia

Not every socialist agree with Russia, it’s only a rule on this subreddit because this subreddit is ruled by the ACP

Desalambrar

Since 2014, Ukraine has been actively shelling the Donbas. My childhood was destroyed when, at the age of 8, my family had to rely on humanitarian aid and live in a basement. I have been struggling with panic attacks my entire life, and when I visit my home in Donetsk, I see many children with cuts on their arms. The war has been going on for a long time, and no one supported us when we needed it. We were part of Ukraine, and when the war began, we briefly moved to Kharkiv, where we were asked at a checkpoint, "Where are you from and where are you going?" My parents replied that we were from Donetsk and were going home, to which they said, "That's what you deserve." At that time, I was eight years old and sitting in the car. I can't say that we were warmly welcomed in Russia, as it was challenging to find employment and obtain citizenship, but I have never heard anything like this from Russians. With the start of the war in 2022, I posted a funny post for my close friends to lighten the tense atmosphere, but a girl from Kiev wished me death and that my hometown would be bombed and I would end up in a basement, where I would die. Yes, my hometown is already half in ruins. Our relatives from Ukraine wished us death for living in Russia. As I grew older, I encountered Ukrainian Nazis who supported Banderas. After all this, I just hope that people will stop spreading hatred, and I don't want to support a country that betrayed me as a child who genuinely loved it. I can't say that I fully support Russia, but I am grateful for their efforts to move the front away from Donbas and recognize us as their regions. People should be kinder and focus on what happened before 2022.

Sorry if there are a lot of mistakes in the text, it was written through a translator, but it was incredibly important for me to express myself on this topic…

PrestigiousCell8162

People here think that anything opposing the US is good, thsrefore they should support Russia. They don't seem to get that a capitalist system (which is obviously stronger than the prevoius one) replacing another capitalist system is still capitalism and in the end we are exactly in the same place as we were.

Positive-Dig74

Guys, I just have to say, if you're supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2025, look in the damn mirror. You have gone too far into ideology. There is an objective bad guy here, with innocents dying as a result.

chermi

I feel like everyone demands you support one side or the other in every single war these days, it’s so fking stupid. They’re both problematic, NATO imperialism is problematic and should not be supported, but so shouldn’t an authoritarian regime who murders its political opponents, and persecutes a ton of people. 

Anyone I see that whole heartedly supports Russia does so for purely ideological reasons and seems to ignore reality.

bilbo_was_right

Its very simple- the west supports Ukraine so therefore it must be bad and imperialist. Russia is opposing the west so it must be the good guy.

That’s literally the thought process. It’s not about the rights of Russian speaking Ukrainians or false claims of neo-nazis in the Ukrainian army. It’s literally as simple as that.

Ihavewiresinmyeyes

People picture wars in their head as burning hot and fast, but the reality is that they're all pretty long affairs. This is just the first true "war" of most young people's lifetimes.

The USA spent over 8 years in vietnam.

WWII was 6 years.

WWI was 4 years.

Civil war was 4 years.

Revolutionary war was 8 years.

GFrohman

Putin doesn’t want to stop because Russia is currently (slowly) gaining territory on the battlefield.

A ceasefire isn’t necessarily in Ukraine’s interest, either, for several reasons:

1. It would probably mean essentially giving up on lost territories to achieve a ceasefire

2. Sanctions and isolation are gradually bleeding Russia dry, and Ukraine wouldn’t want the pressure taken off them

3. Any ceasefire with Russia would inevitably be temporary and would give Russia breathing space to recruit and train new forces and rearm for another attack, something Russia can do much faster than Ukraine

Norwester77

As wars go 3 and half years is not very long. If you [sort the list](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_by_duration) by duration you'll fine a decent handful that are less than 3 years and then hundreds that are longer.

xervir-445

Because the Western countries are willing to provide enough Aid to limit Russia's advance, but not enough Aid to wipe them out.

Concise_Pirate

When Biden said Russia was getting ready to invade Ukraine, I thought "Don't be ridiculous.  It'll bog down and drag on for years and Putin knows it."  Apparently I was half right?

When it actually happened, my next thought was Richard Thompson should prepare a Russian language version of Dad's Gonna Kill Me.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-yySxecVAg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-yySxecVAg)

[https://genius.com/Richard-thompson-dads-gonna-kill-me-lyrics](https://genius.com/Richard-thompson-dads-gonna-kill-me-lyrics)

What person in their right mind ***did not*** think the Ukraine invasion was going to turn into a years long clusterfuck?

cheesewiz_man

Hoo boy, here we go.

__It's 1917, and Woodrow Wilson is the U.S. President.__

&gt; by the beginning of World War I, the Donets Basin had developed into the principal iron and steel producing region of the Russian Empire. Soviet leader Joseph Stalin’s Five-Year Plans greatly accelerated industrial development in the Donbas during the interwar years, albeit at an enormous human cost to the Ukrainian peasantry. Tens of thousands of Ukrainian peasants were deported to Siberia, and millions perished as a result of Stalin’s man-made famine

&gt;  World War II caused heavy damage to mines, plants, and towns. Many industrial assets were destroyed by the Soviets ahead of the German advance as part of their scorched-earth retreat, and the local population suffered brutal treatment under Nazi occupation

&gt; Throughout the postwar Soviet period, the Donbas remained a key centre of heavy industry and coal production

&gt; With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the Donbas became a major industrial engine of the economy of independent Ukraine

&gt; In 2004 Ukrainian Pres. Leonid Kuchma presented Yanukovych as his successor, but Yanukovych faced a strong challenge from opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko. During the presidential campaign, Yushchenko was prevented from speaking in the Donbas by local authorities, and he became seriously ill from dioxin poisoning in an apparent assassination attempt

&gt; Yanokovych was declared victorious, however, a result that was quickly recognized by Russian President Vladimir Putin

&gt; Meanwhile, in the Donbas, a meeting of _Moscow-supported politicians_ recognized Yanukovych as president and considered a referendum on whether the Ukrainian provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk should become autonomous and ultimately secede from Ukraine and join Russia

&gt; Yanukovych was elected president in 2010, and he immediately pivoted away from the pro-European course that Yushchenko had set in favor of a strongly pro-Russian foreign and domestic policy

__Now, we're approaching the tail end of Obama's Presidency.__

&gt; In February 2014 Yanukovych attempted to quash the demonstration with a bloody crackdown that killed dozens of protesters and destroyed his political base. Impeached by an overwhelming parliamentary majority that included members of his own party, Yanukovych fled to Russia. Within days Putin, deprived of his lever in Kyiv, invaded the Ukrainian autonomous republic of Crimea

&gt; __During the summer of 2014, the Ukrainian military pushed back Russian and separatist forces throughout the Donbas__, recapturing the cities of Mariupol, Slov’yansk, and Kramatorsk and waging a pitched battle for control of the Donetsk airport

&gt; _Several attempts were made to negotiate a cease-fire_, and __in February 2015 talks in Minsk, Belarus, led to an agreement that saw most heavy weapons being withdrawn from the line__ of contact that ran through the Donbas

&gt; by 2022 the war in the Donbas had claimed more than 14,000 lives. From the beginning of hostilities, Putin had denied—implausibly—the involvement of Russian personnel in the Donbas war, _but in late 2021 it appeared that Russia was preparing for overt military action against Ukraine_

So you see, this shite has been going on for quite some time.

joelfarris

No-Profession422

Putin can’t afford to “not win.”

Ukraine wants to continue to exist.

chrstgtr

Because neither side is willing to make any concessions. 

Russia wants to keep most of the Ukrainian territory it has captured without future security guarantees for Ukraine. 

Ukraine isn't willing to cede even a single square inch of land.

readySponge07

Recent reports indicate significant territorial gains by Russian forces in eastern Ukraine, especially as military operations intensify amidst ongoing diplomatic negotiations.

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